Anastassia Zamaraeva: A UK-based potter and art therapist.

[00:00:00] And it's not going to be perfect and nobody's expecting it to be, and nobody should expect it to be. Maybe some people looking at art might expect it to be. But as people that produce it, if we're able to focus more on the process, I think it serves us well. Welcome to Season 2 of the Colour and Ceramics Podcast. I'm Bob Acton, your host for the show, and I'm really happy that you're here.

[00:00:25] I want to say thank you for sharing your time and your energy listening to the show, and we now have finished year one and have thousands of downloads from all over the world. Today, I want to introduce you to the charismatic Anastasia Zamaraeva. Anastasia is an incredible potter and art therapist hailing from London in the UK.

[00:00:49] She shares her captivating journey in the realm of ceramics, and we delve into how she cleverly intertwines clay into her art therapy while exploring the world of color and surface in ceramics. So I hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening to the Colour and Ceramics Podcast with Bob Acton and his guests.

[00:01:15] Please help others find the podcast by subscribing to this podcast wherever you find your podcasts, such as iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, or other podcatchers. And don't forget to give us a review. We'll see you next time. Anastasia, thanks so much for joining us today on the Colour and Ceramics Podcast. I am super excited about having you here.

[00:01:40] You know, I know you've got a little taste of Canadianism in you because you lived here for a period of time in Canada, and you're now over in the UK. So thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you so much for advising me. You're most welcome.

[00:01:56] I'm excited about meeting people from all over the world who are doing work in ceramics, and we've interviewed people from Canada, of course, and from the United States and the UK, and just booked somebody in Australia. So I'm excited about getting down into the other part of the world down there. And so that should be fun.

[00:02:22] Now, before we get talking about, you know, colour and surface design and all that stuff, can you tell our audience a little bit about you and your journey in clay and sort of what got you here today? Yeah. Well, it's interesting you bring up Canada because that is, that was my first introduction to clay. So I was born in Russia and my parents and I moved to Canada when I was six.

[00:02:53] And at that point, as a child, I'd always been a creative child for drawing and painting and such. But when we came to Canada, there was an art school right next to my local school that I was going to. And initially, my parents signed me up for some kind of drawing and painting classes. And then I took one ceramics class and then that was it. And it was ceramics for the next five years or whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:24] And it's interesting because at the time I was doing the things that children do, which is making little creatures. I remember there was animals we made, like a haunted house, things like that, the fun stuff. And then we moved over to the UK when I was 12. At that point, I stopped going to any kind of classes. I think it was just there wasn't anything around. So clay got put on the back burner.

[00:03:53] And for some reason, I always thought I would come back to it when I was much older. I thought maybe when I'm retired, I'll pick it back up. Yeah. Yeah. But luckily, it didn't take that long. Well, initially I studied architecture and then after deciding it wasn't my kind of thing, I left without much of a plan. But then suddenly I had all this free time.

[00:04:18] So I took an adult learning class in ceramics and that was the next taking off point after which it was all clay. And I tried to focus as much on it as I could. Yeah. Very cool. So your work is very interesting. You've got a kind of a range of things that you work in. Some human figures, some little creature figures.

[00:04:47] You do some Skafito work. Could you talk a little bit about your work and what inspires you and describe it for people? It's interesting. I've been thinking about my artist's statement recently. I've been rewriting it and partially because I've realized how much of my work currently involves the human figure and often portions of it rather than a full figure.

[00:05:14] I think I rarely have, you know, a head and four limbs. There is always something missing. And I may sketch out of my sketchbook initially planning to, you know, create someone with arms. But then once I get to making it, it feels like it helps to take away some of those elements. But my general approach to ceramics.

[00:05:41] So I'm also an art therapist and that's had a big impact on the way I approach things. So a lot of it is pulling from the subconscious, essentially. I don't, I don't question ideas when they come to me. It's basically my approach. I have got quite good at tuning into the images that I have in my mind.

[00:06:06] And then either going straight with those images or getting into a sketchbook, drawing some things out, trying to develop an idea through that. But the thing that's really helped my approach and solidified how I do things is the idea that I don't need to understand why I'm making something before I made it.

[00:06:35] And that the process of making opens something up and helps me understand what it is that I'm expressing about myself or my environment or the world I live in. And yeah, I would say that all of my work kind of has.

[00:06:56] I don't know, it's very, it's quite personal, but then also I'd like to think that it taps into a larger collective unconscious as well. And I'm always interested to see how people respond to the things I make. It's often very different to what I was thinking and what I understood about myself as I'd made the piece. And I like that.

[00:07:23] I think there's, there's some imagery which just allows people to project their own experiences onto it and have their own response. Hmm. It's interesting to watch how people respond to our work, isn't it? Yeah. I know I had some interesting reactions to a body of work I made last year that surprised me. And it sounds like that happens to you too. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of any responses that I've had recently.

[00:07:51] I mean, it's, I quite like to create things that make people a little bit uncomfortable. And I am interested in the uncomfortable reactions to them. Uh, because I think a lot of it is kind of confront, confronting the discomfort within me. Um, but at the same time, you know, for many years, I actually thought that I made nice, pretty work that, um, everyone liked. Mm-hmm .

[00:08:18] Until I did my first show and I did it in this very rural part of the country, um, very wealthy rural, rural part of the country. And it was not my audience, but it really exposed me to a public that I hadn't been exposed to before in terms of showing what I did. Uh, and most of the responses were people got genuinely upset. Some of them got, were disgusted.

[00:08:48] I would say I had, I had a piece that was a figure. It was a torso of a woman. She had no arms. She had no legs. Um, and she had a hole in her belly with teeth falling out of it. So that was the one that really made people feel a certain way. It is true that people come in, I think sometimes and have a judgment to our work, right? They come in and they like it or they don't like it. Or I like that. I don't like that.

[00:09:16] Um, and, uh, whereas I think you're probably like looking for people to come by and be interested in it and examine why they like certain components of it and to dive into it in that way. Yeah. I like, I like to have a conversation if people are open to that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the things that, um, I've certainly had to struggle with is getting feedback from people about my work.

[00:09:40] And I think early on, I was way more concerned about what people thought and now not so much. Right. Um, has that happened for you? You seem to be able to be strong, to be able to manage the feedback from others. Uh, how have you developed that for yourself?

[00:09:58] I think, um, because my journey has been, it basically started out that, you know, I've started posting some of my work online and, uh, around the beginning of the first lockdown. So start of 2020. When everyone was at home and online, my Instagram took off. And at that point, the work got a lot of attention.

[00:10:26] And that was long before I was doing any of these in-person shows. So I think having that as my foundation of, there are all these people that have taken an interest and like what I do.

[00:10:38] And it meant that when I got into those other places where the response was less positive, I could see it as just a different environment that maybe people aren't used to seeing the kind of work that I'm making rather than a reflection on me or on the work itself. I think it also helped that at that point I was, um, I was doing my art therapy training. So it probably had, uh, built up a bit of resilience. Very good.

[00:11:08] And I do want to ask about that because somebody might be really interested in what an art therapist does and, and, uh, how you might link that to the work that you do. Can you describe that? I know that's a bit of an offshoot talking about our work, your work, but tell us a little bit about that. I think it definitely does connect.

[00:11:27] Um, so an art therapist is quite similar to what you imagine talking therapy to be like, but with the addition of usually the client, sometimes the client and the therapist making some art to express something. Um, and there is an idea that, you know, I think, I think we've all experienced this, that sometimes words aren't enough and they can't access all of our human experience.

[00:11:53] And especially experiences that we had before we could even talk experiences that are very much in the body. Um, and it gives quite a kind of closer link to those types of things when you're able to even, I think, sit down and maybe put a single color on a page if it's too intimidating to draw something. All of that is a form of expression which can be discussed or not discussed.

[00:12:20] Um, it's essentially a tool, uh, that art is a tool in the therapy process. Uh, there was a second part to your question. Can you remind me what that was? How it relates to your work. But, but that, but that's very interesting. Like, do you use clay as a medium sometimes to have the person work with in their sessions? Yeah, so I, at the moment I'm, um, leading a group.

[00:12:47] So I'm not doing any one to one, but even when I was doing one to one or the group, I put out materials for people to choose from. So I don't impose anything on them. They choose whatever it is that they are interested in. Uh, and sometimes people pick up clay. For me, um, when I was doing my training, I quite intentionally didn't do any of my own clay work in the experiential sessions.

[00:13:14] Um, and I think clay can be, it can put you in quite a vulnerable place in a, in a therapeutic context because it is, it's so tactile. Um, and you know, especially if it's wet, it can, it can really take you back to some difficult experiences, uh, and especially the felt sensation of those difficult experiences. So it has to be used quite carefully, um, with a lot of stabilization around it.

[00:13:44] But, you know, I've, I've had clients who have been drawn to the clay and have done very interesting things with it and things that, you know, I would have never even thought to do, um, picking up a piece of clay.

[00:13:56] But I think it allows people to be quite intuitive because you can just, you can just pinch, you can, you know, roll, you can, um, just use your hands rather than having this something between yourself and the paper as you would if you're drawing. And actually in my, the group that I, um, facilitate at the moment, I make art alongside the members of the group.

[00:14:25] And I don't tend to use clay again. Sometimes I do, but generally I'll do a bit of painting. And what I've noticed is that when I hold a paintbrush, I, I can find myself almost unsure about how the movement that I'm making with my hands is creating what I'm seeing on the page. It feels almost a little bit dissociative and that, that's a strange thing, but I think that's probably happened because I'm so used to clay.

[00:14:55] I'm so used to being in direct contact that, that separation between me and the page messes with my brain a little bit. I can see, I mean, clay is so visceral, right? It's, uh, and, and, you know, I'm thinking of somebody who's experienced trauma in their past, how that, that can really, uh, trigger them in terms of, uh, some of their past experiences, which, as you said, you really need to manage or, or put some, some safety.

[00:15:25] And there's, um, safety components around that experience with them. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's very interesting. I, I think clay is a very powerful tool because it is so visceral because it is, I call it of the earth, right? It is the earth that we're playing with. So it's, it's so basic in, in many ways that it really, uh, can work well with people. Mm-hmm. And it connects to something that we've done for many, many generations.

[00:15:53] So I think it's your own experiences and then also the experiences of all the people that came before you that come up as you're engaging with clay. Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, that's some really interesting that work that you're doing. So, so tell us a little bit about your work. I know you've been working with the human figure and I, uh, I really like some of the Sgraffito work that you're doing on, on the, on the pieces. Uh, tell us how you're thinking about that. What's inspiring you along those lines? And.

[00:16:25] Um, I haven't quite unpicked. Why is that the human figure seems to be speaking to me a lot of the time? Um, I think there's something to the fact that it's so familiar, that it's such a, a basic part of our lives. My body, I have my body here all the time. Um, I make a lot of hands and feet.

[00:16:48] And when I, I understand that I'm going to make a hand, but when I begin with just a lump of clay, there's a part of me that isn't quite sure how I'm going to make it into a hand. Um, but I think because I understand the human body, because I have the experience of being in a human body, it comes quite intuitively and it seems like I just start to form, um, these pieces.

[00:17:16] And I, occasionally I do add kind of an elements of animals into the human form. Sometimes I do just animals on their own, but usually they'll have something strange, like two heads rather than the one that they should have. Um, there, so there's a lot of, I think the themes that I tend to touch upon are, um, themes of duality.

[00:17:41] So two headed beings, uh, or I can also sometimes see that as the interaction between two people. Um, a lot of it talks about home as well. So I think because of my experience of moving around as a child, I have a somewhat confused idea of what home is. I think I've spent a lot of my life searching for a home, um,

[00:18:12] and I've come to the realization that I probably won't find one in a physical place and that there's these pieces of me in different places. So that means that every one of those places will be partially home, partially not. Um, and I've, I've continued, you know, working with the theme of home, not necessarily always intentionally, sometimes more intentionally in my work.

[00:18:36] And I think one of the best, um, bits of symbolism that I've found for it is these rugs. So this is the only non-ceramic aspect of what I make is I'll sometimes weave rugs for my pieces to sit on. And what I like about the rugs is this idea that it's something that can be rolled up and taken with you and rolled out wherever you are. So as you step onto it, that is the home that you've created.

[00:19:04] And I think also then the body being a home, um, is an aspect of why figures and parts of bodies appear in my work. Um, of solidifying the idea in myself that I don't need to find a physical place that is home in, you know, all its aspects, but that within these different parts of my body, I can find a sense of home and a sense of belonging.

[00:19:34] Home is where your heart is as opposed to where your feet are. Yeah. Yeah. Although I do make a lot of feet and I think the home is where it's in those feet as well. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very good. Now, the other thing that I've heard you talk about is how the ideas emerge in you. And that, you know, some people I know are very thoughtful before they put any clay on the table. You know, they've made their drawings. They know exactly what they're going to put together and so on and so forth.

[00:20:03] Um, and sometimes I think when I touch a bit of clay that I'm not sure what's, I sort of have an idea of what I want to do, but what emerges sometimes I think is some sort of energy that comes out of the clay. Is that, how do you do your, is it, is that how you do all your work? Is that, is that it seems to emerge when you sit down to the table?

[00:20:24] I think I do a combination because I, I do sketch, uh, and usually my sketches are very, very small and I keep a very tiny sketchbook. So everything I draw is just these little, little squiggles. I understand what they're supposed to represent more because I have a mental image of them, um, rather than because the drawing is telling me exactly what to do.

[00:20:51] But as I move into working in 3D, things do change. Um, and like I said, sometimes they had arms and then they stop having arms because in three dimensions it feels excessive to me. Um, but yeah, I think there's an evolution that the piece goes through when it's being formed as opposed to everything just being completely planned out before I start. I'm also very happy when, with accidents.

[00:21:21] I'll always accept, um, when things go wrong. Um, and maybe this is also the art therapist in me, but I tend to find meaning in that. Um, I had a piece recently. It was, it was, it was a bird, a dead bird, um, with a tree growing out of it. And it was supposed to be about the life and death cycle.

[00:21:45] And that, uh, piece fell and broke recently, which felt like another turn in the cycle, you know, went from the death of a bird to the life of the tree to the death of the whole piece. And as much as I was sad to lose the piece, I just quite enjoyed the symbolism of that.

[00:22:04] And I got my photo and it does actually open up other ideas because seeing that tree broken into all its different pieces, um, has created a new idea of what I would like to do, which is I would like to make some trees. And then break them and then mount the pieces in a frame or a kind of shadow box to have this broken up tree.

[00:22:30] So I think as much as a, a mistake can feel disappointing, it feels like it also opens a lot of doors. I think we potters and ceramic folk have to really be good at that. Like, like, you know, I've done it. Yeah, no kidding. I've done some other craft things in the past, but this has to be the most difficult, um, activity, right?

[00:22:55] There's so much technical components, the type of clay, the heat, the, you know, all those sorts of things, the chemical processes. Yeah. So I hear you. And I, I hear that that's an important part for you is, is to be able to go, I'll call it, go with the flow, go with the flow. If the thing falls on the floor, if it pops into my mind, uh, the emotion that I might feel about something that, that, uh, that is really pretty critical to your practice. Yeah. Trusting the process. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool.

[00:23:25] Not, not, you know, this podcast is about color and surface, right? So let's talk a little bit about that. Uh, tell us about the, the colors and the surface and, and how you approach that with your work. Yeah. It's, it's funny that, um, this, as you say, this is a podcast about color. And when you invited me, I had the thought of, do I belong on a podcast about color?

[00:23:52] Because it's something that I have never felt like I've got a great grasp on, but because, and I, and I love color. I, um, if I'm painting, if I'm drawing, I love to just throw stuff in there. But when it comes to ceramics, I feel like I'm going to ruin a piece by adding too much. So a lot of the time I tend to keep my colors relatively neutral and earthy.

[00:24:22] Uh, but over the years that's developed into quite a nice palette. And I feel like it ends up being quite calming, um, and serene because it is browns and whites and blacks and grays and reds. Um, a lot of it is actually the clay color that I'm using. So I'll use maybe like a black underglaze.

[00:24:44] I've got a couple of colored slips that I use, but largely I like to leave my pieces unglazed and have at least some of the color of the clay showing through. Um, when you mentioned the scruffizo pieces, those, uh, so there's some black ones that I do where I'll take a white clay and paint black over glaze and underglaze, sorry.

[00:25:12] Um, and scratch back using scruffizo. So, which I just, I really enjoy that as a technique. It's been something I've enjoyed basically since I reconnected back with clay. Uh, I, I love revealing the white underneath the black and having to think in, in terms of the negative space when I'm carving into it.

[00:25:38] Uh, I've recently been, uh, uh, copying these Polarego etchings that she did. And as, because they're etchings, obviously they, let me see if I'm going to make sense as I try and explain this. Uh, when she's drawing them, she's drawing the black lines.

[00:25:59] So the outlines of everything, but when I'm carving them into a piece, uh, I'm having to do the white instead of the black. You do the reverse. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Uh, so there's, it feels like there's something quite special about that process of just thinking in the opposite way of how the images were made.

[00:26:25] And, but also in terms of color in my work, I've been thinking in preparation for talking to you, uh, about how it is that I use color. And I think for me, one of the things that makes color feel comfortable or makes it feel like it's going to work with my work is if I have it completely flat. So I don't tend to have variations.

[00:26:54] I don't tend to use, you know, oxides and things. I don't, um, you know, wash anything back. I don't layer. I will choose a single color. That color will cover that section of the piece or the whole piece. Uh, maybe I'll do some scruffy so on it, but that for me allows the form to still be the dominant aspect of the piece without being overwhelmed by surface.

[00:27:22] Um, and because I do tend to think in terms of form as opposed to color. I, I think that's, that's generally what works for me. I've had, I've pulled out some things recently out of the kiln that I decided to glaze, which I don't tend to do. Um, like I said, and I, I did it in a glaze that I had not tested because sometimes you gotta, you gotta just, you gotta go for it.

[00:27:51] Um, and it's, it's reminded me why I don't tend to do that. Why I tend to stick to my flat, plain colors because it feels like the form has been lost underneath the glaze. And it's the shine has also taken away from the form. So I like to keep my surfaces matte, um, maybe with a slight sheen. I often, because like I said, I don't, I don't tend to glaze.

[00:28:20] I will wax, um, some of the surfaces just to give them a bit more of a finished look, a bit of a polish. Uh, but some of them I leave completely unglazed, unwaxed. Yeah. Uh, lots of people that I've spoken to, uh, will, uh, have the same sentiment as you around a non-shiny surface.

[00:28:44] And I, and I feel the same, uh, but, but many of those people will add just a splash of shine, uh, more to bring the eye to a particular spot. Uh, have you tried that technique with your work? Yeah, I think I've done it here and there. It's been a while since, since I have, but occasionally I think on an eye or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, now what challenges have you had in your work?

[00:29:13] Like what's been the, the, some of the things or a thing that you've encountered in your, uh, professional career? Um, and how did you overcome that? I think the thing that instantly popped to mind as you were saying that is the question of style.

[00:29:32] Um, because I feel like I was fed the idea or I picked up the idea around me that it seems to work best for a career. If you narrow down, if you focus in, if you have a thing that is your thing and that is what you're known for. And then you produce lots of very similar looking pieces. And it's what I saw being successful, uh, around me. Yeah.

[00:30:02] Uh, and I try, I mean, I've, I've still try. I've been trying probably the whole time that I've been making and it, it feels like I always, when I start something and it's a new idea, I think this is it. This is going to be the one. Um, yeah, this will stick and I will do it for the rest of my career. Um, yeah. And then two weeks later, I'm onto something else.

[00:30:32] But, and that, that used to stress me out. Um, I used to feel like I was doing the wrong thing by jumping around. And I wondered if people would be able to really see this as one person's work. Uh, I've asked people over the years and actually it's, it's quite nice. Cause I tend to get the response that even though things are quite different, people seem to still feel like it comes from the same world.

[00:30:58] And for me, it feels like it comes from the same world because it's the world inside my head. Yeah. It's very familiar to me. And I think what I've understood and what's helped me accept this changing style is the fact that I don't think I'm completely leaving these thoughts behind and moving on to something else unrelated. I like to think of it as different threads that I have.

[00:31:27] I pick up and I put down and I create a kind of a plat or a braid with them. So there's moments that they're resting and they're in the background, but they're still contributing to the whole in the end. Uh, and hopefully creating more strength as they support each other. And I've, I've also found ways that they can connect. Uh, I've been doing, actually, this is another thing.

[00:31:57] I've put to the side at this point, but maybe a few months ago I was creating these figures, which were more realistic. Uh, and then also these kind of more folk style trees. And I, those tend to be the two directions. I tend to go quite realistic and then pull back and go, uh, quite like stylized folky. But then I put them together and somehow it seemed to make sense.

[00:32:26] And it seemed like I had these figures that were wandering through a world of these trees that they didn't necessarily fit into. But somehow, maybe it was something to do with the color palette as well that still brought them together.

[00:32:41] Um, and I think that's part of what helps me in having a restricted selection of colors is that things do tend to connect back to each other, even if that wasn't the intention as I was making them. Mm-hmm. That having too many color options might drag you off into, into another world. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you. Well, that's very, that's very interesting.

[00:33:08] I, I know lots of people struggle with that same thing about wanting to make sure they have a theme to their work and that that's what, you know, the, the art world wants and that's what we should be doing. But in many ways, you probably have a million ideas in your mind. And so being able to honor those ideas yet at the same time, try to get a focus to your work. I, I hear you there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:33:33] So, you know, um, have you got any advice for a, um, I always say sort of an up and coming, uh, ceramic artist? Um, uh, I used to call him a young artist, but I don't mean that anymore. So it could be an older person who's young at, at the, at the skill set.

[00:33:55] Have you got, have you got, uh, an idea for them about some advice that you might have for them in terms of helping them move forward in their career? So just any advice. Any advice. Any advice. Um, I think if I think about what's helped me, um, what's helped me has been, since we're talking about the expectations of the art world, letting go of a lot of that.

[00:34:22] Um, and letting go of what I thought an art practice should look like, um, or what I thought the process of making art should look like. And there's a lot of ways in which I see now meeting a lot of people that went to art college, which I didn't do, that the self-taught roots, um, can feel a lot more freeing.

[00:34:45] And that's the root that I've, I've had because I speak to people who feel stuck because they've been told that, um, to start making work first, you have to research or you have to have a concept. And you have to think about how, how is this concept? How can it be expressed through a piece of art? And that puts a lot of pressure on people, I think.

[00:35:12] Um, and when I first started making, again, when I came back to it as an adult, I felt that kind of pressure. And I think I did a lot of that where I was trying to think, okay, what can I, what can I express? How can I have a message in this thing? What can this be about? Um, but what changed for me was when I did a foundation course in art therapy and it was just a single week.

[00:35:38] Um, and it was at that point that I realized that anything that you do, um, just because you're doing it is going to be unique and honest and reflective of you. If you just allow yourself to make whatever it is that you want to make rather than having these ideas of trying to think too much about it, I guess.

[00:36:02] Um, so it's trusting yourself and trusting the process, uh, and allowing that to develop naturally. I think something that's also really helped me is I, um, since lockdown, I've been working. Initially I had a home studio.

[00:36:21] Now I've got a studio in a building of other studios, but having my own private space where I can really, I can just make and nobody's watching me. Uh, it helps me to create things that I think can be more vulnerable. Uh, and obviously not everyone has the luxury of being in a space that's completely their own, but I think there's also a lot to be said for spaces with other people and how you can.

[00:36:49] Feed off of that and, um, how the help of other people and the ideas of other people can influence what you're doing in a positive way. But I think there's no wrong answers is what I'm saying. Um, the environment that you're in is going to affect what you do and. And whatever you're feeling inside is going to affect what you do. And I think honoring that and going along with it. Is my advice. Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:19] Very good. I, I think often that, uh, certainly for me and many others that I've spoken to is that, is that clay and art is really a journey and that it's not an end product that we're looking for. Right. And over time, as you said, your ideas come together. There's a synthesis of, uh, the ideas inside of you that emerge in your art eventually.

[00:38:14] Yeah. That also helps because there is this, this idea of you're showing work because you're proud of it and you think it's, it's great. Or like, that's how people perceive it when they see the work. And then that puts added pressure.

[00:38:29] But I think, like you said, seeing this as a process, as opposed to these are these finished perfect things that I've created, um, helps to see it as a, as a long game and see it as, uh, something that's going to evolve and change. And it's not going to be perfect. And nobody's expecting it to be, and nobody should expect it to be. Maybe some, some people looking at art might expect it to be.

[00:38:56] But as people that produce it, um, if we're able to focus more on the process, I think it serves as well. Absolutely. And I also think then after you're finished your piece, the art journey continues for that piece with people who are looking at it and touching it and thinking about it. And, you know, you were talking about when we started first about your experience out in the countryside with that piece that didn't quite work right for those people. Yeah.

[00:39:25] And, uh, and yet, so that piece continues to have a conversation. Yeah. I've, I've always said that for me, there's three important stages in a piece. There's the, um, the initial idea that comes to me, then followed by the making, um, and then the, at the end to have someone see it. So those three are critical for me to feel like something is complete, like my process with it is finished.

[00:39:54] And someone seeing it can be a single person. Someone seeing it could be an exhibition. And it doesn't matter. Sometimes it matters for a specific piece, but to just have that experience witnessed and whatever it is that I've expressed to have that witnessed is important for me. And in a lot of ways, this is part of the reason I'm okay with that bird that got smashed because it's been through the process of what I needed it to do.

[00:40:21] And if someone buys it, great. If no one buys it. And I mean, I don't exactly smash all of my work, but, um, if something breaks, if something gets thrown away, if I give something away for free, that matters a lot less to me. Um, the only reason I sell work is because I need to make money. Yes, absolutely. But at that point of finished piece, I have very little attachment to it for me.

[00:40:51] The key is everything that happens before. And that's almost my product of what I've done. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you really being focused on the process is really, really important for you. Yeah. And that's what drives your work and drives your art and, uh, and drives your experience every day in the studio. Yeah. Anastasia, thanks so much for being with us here today. I really appreciated you spending your time, uh, with us.

[00:41:20] And, uh, I loved our conversation. It's too bad we can't sit down over a cup of coffee somewhere and talk more about art and how you do your work. Yeah, I would have loved that. That would be fascinating. Well, um, I must get over to the UK one of these days, so I'll, uh, I'll make sure I connect with you when I do that. Yes, please do. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. And thank you for all your questions. It's been very, it's been great talking to you.

[00:41:52] Welcome to Color and Ceramics, the podcast for ceramic artists who want valuable ideas about using color from leading artists and world-class experts. Here's your host, Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and how potters, sculptors, and artists use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color, techniques, and the impact of color on people and art itself. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color, and how potters, sculptors, and art, sculptors, and art.