Barry Stedman: Colour Extraordinaire!

[00:00:00] I'm Bob Acton and I'm here today with Barry Stedman. Barry is a potter and painter,

[00:00:30] painter from England whose work I really enjoy. He uses an abstract painterly approach

[00:00:36] to his ceramic work and today we talk about his process, his color choices and some

[00:00:42] of the mysterious experiences artists have with color. Barry works with a terracotta clay

[00:00:48] base and then uses slips to apply his bright colors to produce pieces that have a truly

[00:00:54] organic feel to them. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

[00:01:05] Welcome to Colour and Ceramics, the podcast for ceramic artists who want valuable ideas

[00:01:10] about using color from leading artists and world class experts. Here's your host, Bob

[00:01:16] Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and how potters, sculptors,

[00:01:22] and artists use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color,

[00:01:28] techniques and the impact of color on people and art itself.

[00:01:32] Barry, welcome to the Colour and Ceramics podcast to talk about color and surface decoration.

[00:01:39] I'm really pumped that you're here so thanks for coming on board.

[00:01:46] No problem. Very pleased to be and very pleased to have a chat with you.

[00:01:50] Yes, that's awesome. When I look at your work, I see this deep brilliant colors that

[00:01:58] you use on your pieces and when I look at your work, it's almost as if I'm taking to

[00:02:06] a new land, almost a new planet. It's so vibrant and has that effect on me.

[00:02:14] So I'm really intrigued about your approach to color and surface design.

[00:02:22] But when I look at your work, I see that your work really probably represents years of

[00:02:30] hard work. And so I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your journey to get

[00:02:36] you here today?

[00:02:39] Yes, of course. So I came to Ceramics. I suppose lately I was just in my early 30s and

[00:02:51] I started doing an evening class in Ceramics actually and obviously I got hooked on it so

[00:03:01] I wouldn't be doing it now. But I do think one of the reasons I took to Ceramics is because

[00:03:10] previous to that, I did a lot of drawing and painting and mark making which I still do

[00:03:16] now and I still love it just as much. But I think I was looking for a way of being more abstract.

[00:03:27] I wanted to, I did a lot of drawing and painting out star but very figurative. I drew what

[00:03:33] I saw again and I still do that now. But Ceramics struck me as being immediately abstract,

[00:03:42] particularly vessel making which I took to straight away. That was my thing. And I thought

[00:03:48] I've got this abstract object straight away that I can apply color to. So right from the

[00:03:53] start that's why and that's what I was drawn to. And really I've carried on more or less

[00:04:01] doing the same thing. And I started an evening class and then I started two evening classes

[00:04:10] and then I decided I would either have to go with it and really push what I was doing

[00:04:19] and try and get better at it. And to do that I'd have to probably go to college. And at this

[00:04:28] time I was, I had my own business. I had a small shop selling flowers and plants and little

[00:04:37] bit of fruit and vention things and then had a little floristry business going alongside

[00:04:43] of that. And I enjoyed that. I knew that wasn't really what I wanted to do. But because I had

[00:04:51] my own business, I was able to take some time and I studied two days a week doing an H&D,

[00:04:57] a high national diploma in 3D design at a local college. And I did that for three or four years

[00:05:05] actually. It was a three year course and I did learn loads. And then when I finished there

[00:05:12] I managed to get on the degree course at Westminster, which was a fantastic ceramic course.

[00:05:21] And I went into the second year on that and by doing that that really helped. And I knew then

[00:05:33] that's what I was doing. But again, I did it part time so I was working at the same time.

[00:05:41] And then I managed to get, well I was on that course. I managed to get a job as a technician

[00:05:47] at the college where I'd done my original study. So I was a ceramic technician for a while

[00:05:53] and then I began to teach the evening class that I'd been on and then I started teaching on the

[00:05:59] foundation degree courses as well. And all of that stuff massively increased my knowledge because

[00:06:06] I had to help other people all the time with what they were doing. So I ended up with quite a

[00:06:11] wide range of skills in different areas. Yeah, so that's sort of how I got into it really.

[00:06:19] So very in your focus on colour and surface design, what motivates you? What do you get excited

[00:06:28] about these days? What gets you out of bed in the morning? Good question. I think it's funny because

[00:06:38] a few years ago, about three years ago, I did a body of work and I took it to a gallery and it was

[00:06:44] had very minimal colour and I had to do a little talk. Some people came to the show,

[00:06:51] did a little talk and I said yeah this is my new work and it had hardly any colour at all. And I said

[00:06:57] going forward, I shan't be using so much colour. And then ever since then, I've got more and more

[00:07:06] and more into colour and I just think that is my thing. And I think of my vessels in the same way as

[00:07:17] I think of my painting and colour is almost the starting point. So if I go out for a walk,

[00:07:28] I'm totally influenced by what's going on around me. I love nature, I love flowers and plurms

[00:07:37] all those things are an influence on what I do and I do quite a lot of painting outside and sketch

[00:07:44] but work. So colour is really the root of my practice.

[00:07:52] That's really interesting, I am reflecting as you are talking about my experience.

[00:07:59] I'm a big gardener and so if I get out in my garden, I'm thinking also about form and the

[00:08:06] shapes of flowers and so on. But you've really focused yours on the colour, whereas the shapes

[00:08:14] it sounds like are less important. Yeah I think so, I think it's a really good observation and

[00:08:22] the forms that I make, I obviously love making and I love form, I love vessels but I do think

[00:08:33] the forms I make are fairly sort of familiar forms, they're fairly straightforward forms and in a way

[00:08:42] I want the form to be almost, I don't know how to describe it. I don't want you to recognise

[00:08:53] the form as a particular thing so it's the reason I don't make jokers or cups or things like that.

[00:09:01] I tend to think of them as I open forms that feel like they're still growing and I want the colour

[00:09:08] to infuse the form so it becomes this complete coloured thing and it is important that it's a vessel

[00:09:19] because you know it contains air and it's got a sort of a definite life that people recognise

[00:09:28] in vessels but I don't want them to be seen as particular functional forms or necessarily even

[00:09:36] things to use, it's fine if you do, but that's not my motivation for making them.

[00:09:43] But you know when most of well, so in most yeah perhaps most of my forms are wheelthrowed

[00:09:50] and when I'm throwing I feel like I'm doing the under painting or the under drawing

[00:09:57] for a finished painting so it starts right at the beginning for me, this sort of mark making

[00:10:04] it starts with the throwing. It's seen when I look at your work I see this what I might call

[00:10:13] an organic form in the sense that it's yes we can see it's a cup or a plate but in a way it sounds

[00:10:22] like what you're doing is creating this organic form that is somewhat formless but it also

[00:10:32] works to be your canvas for the colour. Yeah definitely I think that's true, I always think

[00:10:43] because I do paint on canvas as well it feels very different in as much as

[00:10:49] what I like about painting on ceramics or on a round form is that you've not got a single view

[00:10:58] point where it's on a canvas, it's a very distinctive shape that you paint up to the edges and

[00:11:05] you make something happen within these edges whereas with a vessel I feel you know I can move it

[00:11:13] and change my view point the whole time and you can most of my work is small enough to handle

[00:11:20] and pick up and turn around and I think that's one of the big differences between

[00:11:29] painting a form like that a vessel form and a canvas but yeah I do I do feel like

[00:11:40] I feel if once I've made my full because quite often when you're throwing you throw a group

[00:11:45] of forms and you've got them there in your studio and you think they're never going to be nice

[00:11:51] than this because it's the wet clay and the soft marks and you know I always have to put a dent

[00:11:58] in somewhere or or tear a rim or something and it's such a lovely process and when it's when

[00:12:06] it's sitting there wet off the wheel you think it's never going to be nice than this but for me

[00:12:12] that's the sort of starting point of I have to somehow introduce colour and form and yeah it makes

[00:12:23] it something else it's become something different and it is quite interesting because quite often

[00:12:30] the forms that you think have worked really well when you've thrown on a wheel and you've

[00:12:36] put them on the side and you're you'll throw in the next one and you're looking over and

[00:12:40] seeing what you think of that one quite often it's not the nicest one when you've painted it and

[00:12:47] glazed it you know there's something something's changed you know it's really fascinating it's

[00:12:53] interesting and of course even though probably colour is my main thing I do spend a lot of time

[00:13:01] thinking about rims and you know how the base hits the surface and whether you have a shadow

[00:13:10] underneath all those things that what does think about as well you know they are important

[00:13:17] it really your feet really when I think about painting it's too dimensional for the most part

[00:13:26] yes and and your work is you're really creating three dimensional advices if we think about it that

[00:13:33] way and and each of your pieces is different they you might have a similar form but unlike a pot

[00:13:43] or a production potter who's repeating the same form over and over yours as a real as I've said

[00:13:50] in the past at an organic form so that it's it's a bit different like each flower in the garden

[00:13:56] is a little different yeah that's exactly that's that's a really nice way to put it and I

[00:14:01] purposely try and not make them the same I mean I'm not really a potter I'm a maker and I make

[00:14:09] you know I'm not great at throwing but I can throw fairly fluently now and whatever I'm making

[00:14:17] I'm always trying to change it in some way or make it slightly different even if it's part of a

[00:14:24] series that's the same I do quite like to to change it in some way you know and it's interesting

[00:14:35] because I was thinking whenever I start a new batch of work I don't know if you feel this yourself

[00:14:41] that you almost feel like you're starting from scratch again you know it feels

[00:14:48] you feel that little bit of uncertainty about what's going to happen you know and um I think

[00:14:54] that's quite good really yeah I agree I um I'm actually just starting a new set of work myself

[00:15:01] and recognize that feeling I was down in my studio yesterday and I could feel that little bit of anxiety

[00:15:09] starting this new work and uh and it's become familiar now yeah it's really interesting isn't it

[00:15:18] and um I do I sort of think that we will leave that sort of little bit of edge I was trying to look

[00:15:27] for that little bit of edge when you do something and you do feel like you want to try and push it

[00:15:33] a bit further and then of course when you're or when I'm painting colour on things you really don't

[00:15:42] know how it's going to turn out you know you you can see it you mean all my work at the moment is

[00:15:49] slips coloured slips and um you know you add the stain to your slip when it changes the colour basically

[00:15:57] so when you're painting it on yeah you've got your test and things you can

[00:16:03] you know sort of no how it's going to come out but you don't really especially if you overlay

[00:16:08] colours and things you know you you're trying to imagine how it would be so there's always that

[00:16:13] element of um surprise or anticipation when it comes through and um yeah and you get certain

[00:16:24] amount of hesitation before you start just for that reason you know but um it's that's what keeps

[00:16:31] you going really I agree I I think that's a kind of a crazy part of ceramics in the sense that um

[00:16:40] you know a painter can put paint on a canvas and what you see is what you get but with play often

[00:16:48] that's not true and the potter has to know their the technical aspects of their work so well

[00:16:56] to be able to predict it as best as they can yeah it's a bit mad isn't it quite of course sometimes

[00:17:04] they have to quite know why we're doing this yeah yeah but it is a bit addictive isn't it oh it's

[00:17:10] it's totally addictive and um you know sometimes I don't know about you sometimes you can get a

[00:17:18] bit down a bit you know I'd a fire in at the weekend and it technically everything went really

[00:17:24] well and they were quite big pieces but they didn't really the marks just weren't right

[00:17:31] and they just didn't have enough zing about them and yeah and it was quite disappointing and

[00:17:39] it does affect you know you spend the day thinking why did I do that you know why do you invest so

[00:17:46] much of your sort of emotional energy into these things but then interestingly I looked at them

[00:17:53] the next day and a couple of them I started pairing them up with something else

[00:18:00] I put mine on white you know white space I've got quite some more studios there's not a lot of

[00:18:04] space so when I do photography lay out a white sheet and separate it out and um yeah they did

[00:18:12] they did improve a little bit but um it's quite interesting because I've noticed if

[00:18:19] if I make something bigger if I'm too precious about it and I think uh these you know there's

[00:18:24] quite a lot of materials I'm using here I need to get this right when you do that you obviously

[00:18:30] verably lose something and um yeah it's a bit of a lesson there that

[00:18:38] don't try and control it too much maybe it's interesting I think that's a common theme over

[00:18:46] many of the people that I've spoken to on this podcast is about not making pieces too precious

[00:18:52] or the process too precious because you never know what's going to come out

[00:18:57] no it's true it's difficult because you know you do think about your carbon footprint and

[00:19:05] you not wanting to work based materials or things like that but um certainly in my process it's

[00:19:13] hard to work any other way really because it relies on a sort of spontaneous approach and

[00:19:19] you know I know some days my markmaking is much better than other days you know and you can't

[00:19:27] always always got the luxury of choosing when you know you've got to go for it but um

[00:19:35] one of the things I've noticed is if if I find a piece that I like and it turns out to be one

[00:19:42] of my favourite things the biggest mistake is to try and recreate that again

[00:19:48] um each I find for me a piece I do it has to have its own sort of energy and um

[00:19:57] you can take ideas from your previous work but it whenever I tried to recreate something it's never

[00:20:06] had as much sort of interest in vigor as perhaps if it become you know if it's come from somewhere

[00:20:14] new possibly and I love your use of the word energy within the piece um and you know when I

[00:20:23] looked at your work that's what I got was a feeling of energy and and and part of that came from

[00:20:31] your color palette um what inspires your color choices so most of my color choices

[00:20:42] well it's the love of the color itself um as you can probably guess I love abstract painting and

[00:20:50] um you know I've got a lot of books on painters that I like you know I love

[00:20:56] abstract expression is painting but I love painting of all sorts and I love painting myself

[00:21:03] so a lot of my color choices come from work that I've done on paper or in my sketchbook

[00:21:12] but also it's a very emotional thing and um I think that's why some days you can't do yellow for

[00:21:23] some reason or you know one day might be an orange day and I don't know what the answer don't know

[00:21:31] why it's like that but I definitely find that and also you know when when you work in ceramics

[00:21:37] particularly if you're throwing I think you are constantly working in series and um one thing

[00:21:43] follows on for another so you know you might do a piece that's got a little patch of green and

[00:21:50] you might think actually I'll read like that green and let's start you off on the next thing

[00:21:54] you think I really want to make that green a dominant color in this series so then you think

[00:22:03] you know that reminds me of something in the garden or it reminds me of I was using this particular

[00:22:10] green at the moment and um I've been reading all about Monay's last paintings his big water lily

[00:22:19] paintings are really interesting book about it and um I was flicking through some books and he's

[00:22:25] got this he had this boat that he used to have as a floating studio floating on the same and he'd

[00:22:33] done a painting of it and it was this particular green that I absolutely loved and um I came across

[00:22:39] in other stains had this sort of similar feel about it so at the moment I'm very into this

[00:22:46] particular green and then you sort of think of what you think about complementries of green and

[00:22:54] pinks and reds and things and you start playing around with those and um yeah so it's quite organic

[00:23:00] really and I do find the the less I plan it in advance than the better it often is

[00:23:10] it's really it seems like important to you to honor that uh I don't know whether to call it

[00:23:21] spirit or or that idea within yourself and to let yourself be free with it much like your mark

[00:23:27] making which is really a free way to make marks yes definitely and um I think that

[00:23:39] is all through my practice and I think really that's the sort of starting point of how I do things

[00:23:47] I don't really like doing things that uh um

[00:23:54] to I like to work quite quickly and quite energetically and I tend I choose

[00:24:03] things that allow me to do that so for instance a lot of my throwing um I don't turn

[00:24:10] foot rings on things very often not because I don't enjoy because I actually do quite enjoy doing

[00:24:15] that but I quite like the idea of having been wet clay and throwing on the wheel and then having

[00:24:24] that sort of life appear in front of you and and sort of holding that life without then going

[00:24:31] back to it and doing something else and I'm a little bit like that with my mark making as well

[00:24:38] so I do think the whole point of doing it for me is to give things life and um I suppose that's

[00:24:47] my definition of life is to be have sort of as you said energy and um yeah certain passion in what I'm

[00:24:56] telling you know and of course art doesn't just end with the making of the piece but also involves

[00:25:05] the person using or observing the work and we've talked a bit about that here today I'm

[00:25:11] really interested in the psychology of color you know given your bold work

[00:25:17] I imagine you might be as well but what do you think or how does the choice of color

[00:25:24] influence the overall mood or message of your ceramic artwork?

[00:25:31] Well I think it does you know I mean I think it's

[00:25:37] and it's not for everyone that's that's the first thing to say and if I do a show or something

[00:25:43] that would be a certain certain people that all love the idea of sort of bright vibrant color

[00:25:52] and then there'll be those people that are not but um I definitely think it does

[00:26:02] act as a sort of um

[00:26:09] strong motions about things you know yeah yeah definitely very cool very cool um I know I also know

[00:26:17] you do some work with Edmond DeWall um I and I'd love you to tell us a little bit about your work

[00:26:25] but I'm really intrigued by the contrast of your sort of beautifully colored work on a terracotta

[00:26:33] body to Edmond's porcelain work to tell me to tell us how you sit in both of those worlds

[00:26:40] yeah it's interesting isn't it I didn't expect to be

[00:26:47] I didn't expect to be so involved with um with Edmond's work I was very lucky because Edmond

[00:26:55] was a professor at the university and um as part of our course we all were asked to choose either

[00:27:05] an artist to go and work with or maybe go to a factory or whatever your interest was

[00:27:13] and um I was lucky enough to be placed with Edmond and um so I went and did a work placement

[00:27:22] at his studio in South London um you know and I purposely wanted to do it and obviously because

[00:27:31] I like his work but also that it's very different approach to my own work you know and um it's

[00:27:41] you know much much better to learn from someone that has perhaps a different approach to you

[00:27:49] um and yeah I carried on and I was offered a part time position in his studio and he was expanding

[00:27:58] his studio and moved to a bigger space and I've been lucky enough to go along on his journey as

[00:28:06] well which is completely different to mine um and I get to work with porcelain and it's surprising

[00:28:18] you know I've learnt huge amount by working with him and it's surprising how ideas do cross over

[00:28:26] you know and um his work is also very fluent and very organic um and the relationship between

[00:28:40] words and objects is something that I'm really interested in as well so I've sort of been lucky to

[00:28:51] to work in that so I get I follow the guest kilns there and um we talk about ideas that he's got

[00:29:00] yeah it's very very very good for me thanks so much for sharing that I wondered if you could

[00:29:09] share an idea that you might have for uh another ceramic artist who is wanting to develop their

[00:29:18] unique style you've you've shared some great ideas here today um such as working in series

[00:29:27] uh working with a mentor um and so on but I'm wondering if you have any advice for a young artist

[00:29:36] well I do think it's you know I was lucky enough both the college courses I did

[00:29:42] encouraged experimentation and we tried all sorts of things and we were also encouraged to look

[00:29:50] outside of ceramics and look at the world of art and you find a direction that you're that you're

[00:29:58] interested in and um it's definitely worth trying all different areas um and you will

[00:30:07] you won't know in advance probably won't know in advance until you start doing stuff and then

[00:30:13] you'll find that there's a particular area that you become passionate about and um

[00:30:21] and then I think it's a you just have to keep going with it and there's not some sort of magical

[00:30:29] final point you get to um you just keep going and you find the things that

[00:30:36] make you want to go in the studio each day and um yeah it's important to I always think if you

[00:30:48] know what the next thing might be then you'll probably in quite a good place you know if you know

[00:30:58] I've done this and now I could do this and oh yeah and that could lead to this and I think

[00:31:02] when you feel like that then you know you're on quite a good path but it's definitely not a straight

[00:31:07] line you definitely go down lots of blind alias and there's definite disappointments but you just have to

[00:31:17] live with them for a little while and then move on to the next thing

[00:31:21] it's kind of like going for a walk in the forest. Yes it is yeah the good thing about ceramics I think

[00:31:29] is it allows you you know as you saw what I learned from Edmund as well it allows you

[00:31:35] to combine the things that you're interested in so you know making might be one thing but

[00:31:43] you know you may well be interested in books or nature or music you know and there's a pathway

[00:31:49] to incorporate all that in your work you know which I don't think I realised when I started out

[00:31:58] and now I realise that all the things you're interested in actually show up in your work in different ways

[00:32:08] and also maybe you don't have to explain that maybe

[00:32:15] maybe that's why you make the work because you can't explain it in words but the work allows you

[00:32:21] to express the things that you can't say. It is true that often our customers or people who see

[00:32:36] our work ask us artists about why did you do that and does that have some particular meaning

[00:32:45] that you can tell me about when in fact sometimes we don't have an answer for that.

[00:32:52] No it's very true isn't it quite often we don't have an answer or maybe we have an answer later on

[00:32:58] when we look back on things but you know unless that's part of your practice and that's something

[00:33:07] you want to develop. I don't think you necessarily need to know why you've done something

[00:33:18] I mean you need to do things with per person things things how you do things matter

[00:33:29] but whether you have to explain why you do things I'm not sure.

[00:33:39] Yeah I would agree I think that it's really important to

[00:33:45] experiment to try new things out in a purposeful manner and but sometimes we're not sure

[00:33:56] why we're making the piece we are but we're still doing it with a purpose

[00:34:02] particularly maybe around an exploration of an idea or a technique.

[00:34:07] Yeah yeah definitely yeah and quite often you're not quite sure what that idea is

[00:34:14] and then what it is you're trying it but I quite like not knowing before I start you know

[00:34:21] and sometimes that creates problems but for me it's like if I'm painting I don't

[00:34:27] I don't very often picture the anything I might picture the type of feeling I want from something

[00:34:37] but for me the joy is in the making you know and developing it as I go along I really

[00:34:46] that's that's the side of the work that I really enjoy and it used to bother me that

[00:34:53] I didn't I didn't have strong ideas of finished things and you know not particularly

[00:34:59] conception about things but now I've accepted that is the way I work and I know that if

[00:35:07] if I start something then I will find a thread of interest somewhere in it and then I can go

[00:35:15] along with that you know sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but it's okay to start something

[00:35:23] without knowing what you're going to end up with definitely. That's a very important lesson

[00:35:31] that you just shared was this idea that if we think about what we should be doing then

[00:35:38] that can get in the way of what's truly important to us. Yeah definitely you know and it's quite

[00:35:45] hard when you're when you're selling things and you know it's part of your part of your living

[00:35:52] part of your income you know you do need to make some things that work but you know you need to

[00:36:02] find a way of still allowing your sort of freedom and your voice to come through. Yeah I don't

[00:36:10] know and you know having slightly do your sketchbook you know you're not going to you might look on

[00:36:18] Instagram and see these people with the perfect page on every page of the sketchbook but I'm sure

[00:36:23] that's not the reality of life certainly not with me and every firing there's some that I'm much

[00:36:32] prefer than others you know sometimes they're not quite nice at all so they don't make it out into

[00:36:38] the world but I suspect you have to have those you know. Mary I want to say a big thank you for being

[00:36:47] with us here today I think some of your ideas have been fabulous and my hope is that our listeners can

[00:36:57] really capture some of the lessons and ideas that you've got to help them improve their practice.

[00:37:07] Well that's been really nice chatting to you Bob and thank you for letting me waffle on a little bit.

[00:37:14] Well thank you we had a we had a very organic conversation here today much like your work and

[00:37:26] yeah that's right thank you. Thank you.

[00:37:32] Thanks for listening to the Color and Ceramic podcast with Bob Acton and his guests please help

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[00:37:51] We'll see you next time