Janet MacPherson: A Canadian Ceramic Artist

[00:00:00] I mean, the main thing for me was just working as much as you possibly can. And it's maybe going to have to come at some sacrifice where you, you know, renting a studio, but try and do that as inexpensively as possible. Work with a bunch of other people, you know, things are much more expensive than they were when I left school in 2002. So I understand that it's really hard to do it. But if there's any way you can have a part time job instead of a full time job, or

[00:00:30] you know, make your costs at your studio lower so that you can work more and just put as much energy as you can into that part of your life because it will pay off.

[00:00:48] Welcome to Color and Ceramics, the podcast for ceramic artists who want valuable ideas about using color from leading artists and world class experts. Here's your host, Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and how potters, sculptors,

[00:01:06] and artists use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color techniques and the impact of color on people and art itself.

[00:01:15] Hey, I'm Bob Acton and welcome to the Color and Ceramics podcast episode number 23. It's been a great journey so far. We're almost up to a year of episodes and interviews with great ceramic artists around the world.

[00:01:32] And of course, we've got thousands of downloads from all over the planet. This has been very exciting for me to create new friendships and relationships with people around the world. And I hope you are enjoying these conversations as well.

[00:01:48] I want to introduce you to Janet McPherson. She is a Canadian ceramic artist, primarily working in sculpture and using a variety of clays, as you will hear about in the interview. I encourage you to check out her website and you'll see links to her website in the show notes as she has just gorgeous work. Enjoy the show.

[00:02:13] Janet, thank you so much for joining us today here on the Color and Ceramics podcast. I'm super excited about having you here. I just love your work. And so welcome aboard.

[00:02:27] Thanks. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[00:02:29] Oh, you're most welcome. You're most welcome. I think a lot of your work, I want to talk about it a lot because it's got so much symbolism in it that I think it would be really interesting to hear about your work and your journey and so on.

[00:02:43] So I wonder if we could start off with you telling us about your work. Like I know this is an audio only podcast and my hope is that people will find you in your links in the links in the podcast and go and check out your work. But tell us about your work. What are you up to? Why do you do what you do? And so on.

[00:03:04] Okay, that's a big question.

[00:03:06] Yes, it is.

[00:03:08] Well, I guess basically, I've always been interested in creating and drawing. I didn't really pursue it for a very long time until I was in my 20s. And I went to school, Sheridan College for ceramics. And I chose ceramics because I always knew I wanted to have some kind of artistic practice, but I wasn't sure what that was.

[00:03:33] And I thought ceramics would be a nice introduction into this kind of world. And I knew some people who did it. So I think mostly it was for me, it was just I really wanted to find a medium in which to express my ideas, things about my childhood, and a lot of things that had to do with my experience growing up Catholic.

[00:03:59] And so I know ceramics seems like a strange place to start. But I think after we got through, you know, all the technical things, learning how to throw learning how to hand build, in our my last year, I was able to take all that knowledge and really run with it and start to create what I had kind of always thought I wanted to do, which was narrative based work.

[00:04:21] And it was kind of just a revelation to me to be able to use clay to say these things that I wanted to say. And it was maybe a little bit less intimidating than painting or sculpting, or it was much more familiar kind of place to start.

[00:04:40] I think the reason I started carving, which I know some of you see my work has a lot of black and white carving.

[00:04:47] We had a session in school where we covered slabs of clay in black underglaze or slip. And we had a model, and we had to carve the image. And having that revelatory mark made just was like, light bulbs went off. I thought, Oh my gosh, this is how I'm going to be able to do this.

[00:05:10] And so yeah, and the familiarity of the material was already there for me, because I had already learned how to work with it. So the journey goes on after that, you know, setting up a studio with some colleagues, and then going to graduate school, where I completely changed my work from more functional to sculptural, but it all kind of was coming from the same place of wanting to provide this narrative that talked about.

[00:05:39] My past, and my interest in Christian iconography. And just sort of how all the discrepancies and the strange dualities of Catholicism, and how I experienced as a younger person growing up in a pretty Catholic household where we went to church all the time. And my dad played the organ at church, my grandmother lived with us, and she was very religious.

[00:06:08] And so it kind of just, I mean, I can talk more about that.

[00:06:11] But it's kind of all coming from that place. And I'm using all different kinds of things like, initially, it was carving on clay, and then it became sculpture.

[00:06:22] Through using slip cast objects, and just kind of manipulating them and playing with them. And yeah, I'll have to sort of break it up into chunks, I guess. But yeah.

[00:06:35] Yeah. So, so please do break it up into chunks. Like, I think you're right, that was a big question on my part. And you and that's a big answer. And, and, and so tell us about the

[00:06:49] tell us in a way that people could imagine in their mind, what kind of work that you do. I'm, I'm on your website right now, I'm looking at your recent work. And there are sculpture, I'll call them sculptures of animals and eyes and all sorts of things. So tell us a little bit about why you, how those fit within your story that you'd like to tell.

[00:07:13] Okay. Um, so I started doing the sort of mold making slip casting work in graduate school. And I started off by using commercial molds that already existed. And a lot of those molds are made of saints and the nativity, but also lots of animals.

[00:07:32] And so I started just casting those in casting slip and then cutting them apart and putting them back together and seeing kind of what results I would get. And I ended up with these like strange little hybrid creatures that had, you know, the body of a person, a head of a, you know, a lamb and just kind of all the, all the permutations that I could make from those.

[00:07:56] And then I started to get bored with those molds. So I started finding objects to cast. So I would find little toys at thrift stores and, you know, Dollarama and all those places and start making molds with those. I had anything I could find that I could cast.

[00:08:14] I would just sort of start casting. So, uh, the animals, I would cut them apart to make the mold. So I ended up with like having a lot of heads and a lot of bodies and a lot of legs and I can just mix and match them sort of how I want.

[00:08:30] And it's also important that a lot of them. They're all kind of at the same scale. So they're, they're, they're children's, you know, toys or, or like little animal figurines. So they're all kind of, uh, they're fairly small, but they all kind of go together in these different ways.

[00:08:46] And every time I add a new animal, there's a whole other permutation that I can start exploring and the animals, I stopped using humans as much in my work. Um, but I found that the animals were so loaded in terms of what they could say without having it, without having it be so literal, because the animals could be the stand-ins for humans.

[00:09:10] And our journeys and our relationships and our relationships and our relationships and our relationships and our relationships and my journey and my relationships with people, um, by placing two of them together, looking at each other, they can kind of create a whole world of conversation.

[00:09:25] But, um, the animals also have this pathos that people really respond to because they look at them and they're like, oh, it's a lamb. Oh, it's a little, um, uh, bunny rabbit.

[00:09:40] Or whatever. And, and they kind of, that's a way in. But then when you look at the way that they're looking at each other or responding to each other, there's a lot more going on in the desert.

[00:09:53] And then the other aspect of it, which people ask me about a lot, is why I cover their faces with, uh, with another kind of porcelain.

[00:10:03] And, um, so that came about really accidentally in a weird way. I was at the Ohio State Fair.

[00:10:10] I went to the Ohio State University for graduate school and they have a, of course they have a state fair every year.

[00:10:16] It's really huge.

[00:10:19] It's a big, big part of the whole university college in the United States experience.

[00:10:28] And, um, there was an, uh, a lot of the animals were wrapped in these protective clothing, this protective clothing to keep them, I guess, clean before they were being auctioned.

[00:10:39] And the one lamb had a, had like a mask on almost. It was like this white mask with eye holes. And I thought that it was just the most haunting image. And I just really loved it.

[00:10:50] So I tried to recreate it in my studio and I just started using porcelain to kind of make these little masks.

[00:10:57] And then kind of like when I had that moment, when I carved my first, uh, line into the clay covered in black slip, when I covered the eyes or the faces of these animals, something really clicked.

[00:11:11] It was like all this stuff about being raised in this religious household, all the imagery that I saw when I was growing up, it all kind of came together in this, in these animals with these face coverings.

[00:11:28] So I like to sort of see them as you don't know whether or not they're bandages, you don't, or they're maybe they're, they're restraints.

[00:11:37] They could be something that would be helping the animal or something that could be hurting the animal.

[00:11:42] There's this tension between those two things when you're, when the viewer is looking at the piece.

[00:11:50] What do you hope that people, people's experience might be when they see some of your work?

[00:12:04] You know, a lot of, uh, understanding, a connection.

[00:12:10] A lot of people strangely get the religious part of it right away.

[00:12:19] A lot of people who are raised Catholic get it.

[00:12:24] Even without me talking about that and really interesting.

[00:12:28] Um, yeah, people feel empathy, maybe a little bit of concern, but also just questioning, um, trying to figure out what is going on in this situation.

[00:12:43] I really like that, you know, kind of open-ended.

[00:12:47] For sure.

[00:12:49] Yeah, for sure.

[00:12:50] Like I, when I looked at it first, you know, you're drawn, I was drawn into the animals cause that's kind of my thing.

[00:12:56] That's what I'm interested in.

[00:12:58] Right.

[00:12:58] And, and so I look at it, but then I had to look at it further.

[00:13:01] There was something else in there that pulled me in that I wanted to understand a bit more.

[00:13:06] Uh, so that makes perfect sense.

[00:13:09] Uh, but you know, I wasn't raised Catholic, so I'm not sure I get the Catholic, uh, connection.

[00:13:17] Can you explain that a little bit?

[00:13:19] Sure.

[00:13:20] Um, for me, it's, I hope, yeah, I'll just, I'll just tell you.

[00:13:25] It's, it's, you know, it's sort of personal, but, you know, growing up in a fairly religious household, especially with my grandmother living with us, who was very religious.

[00:13:37] My dad played the organ at our church.

[00:13:39] We went every Sunday.

[00:13:40] There's a certain amount of like restriction that goes along with that, um, with having to sort of believe, even if you're not sure that that's what you actually want to believe in.

[00:13:50] Um, there's a certain amount of, yeah, coercion in that, that I, I think is there.

[00:13:57] I went to Catholic schools as well.

[00:13:59] So we always learned about our faith and we, you know, it was not just a part-time past thing.

[00:14:06] It was, it was pretty entrenched.

[00:14:08] Um, but the mass is so interesting to me because you're talking about all these, like in my home, you know, my grandmother would shame us for exposing our bodies in any way.

[00:14:20] Or, you know, you're, you're supposed to have an attachment to your body.

[00:14:23] You're supposed to just be this like trying, striving to be the spiritual person who, you know, almost kind of ignores the fact that you have this physical body because the whole reward of being alive is you get to live forever in the afterlife.

[00:14:37] And so going to mass, you know, you get that part of it, but then you're also confronted by this gory image of Christ on the cross, bleeding.

[00:14:51] Very, very, very human.

[00:14:54] And very fragile and, and, and a bit and a body and you're eating a body when you're eating the Eucharist.

[00:15:02] And it's just so, I found it so hard to reconcile those two aspects of my life, I guess.

[00:15:13] And, uh, but also very fascinating because there's also all this imagery that's so gory and so, um, visceral.

[00:15:21] Like the saints being martyred and all these things that I, it's just incredibly gruesome.

[00:15:29] And I'm like, how does a faith that really doesn't really want to even acknowledge or respond to the bodily truth of our existence portray all these things?

[00:15:41] So, uh, ubiquitously.

[00:15:48] Yes, I hear you there.

[00:15:49] So I can start to understand some of your work now a little better as I see that there, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:15:58] Um, can, can you tell it, can we switch a little bit and talk, tell us a little bit about your, uh, more formal journey, I guess, in clay.

[00:16:07] So you talked about at Ohio state and can you tell us a little bit about, uh, how you got here today in terms of what you're doing?

[00:16:18] You mean, oh, sorry.

[00:16:19] Do you, are you asking about like.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] But like, where did you go to school and, uh, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:16:25] Yeah.

[00:16:25] So, um, I went to York university, uh, for my undergrad and I did philosophy, mostly existentialism.

[00:16:33] That seemed to be their thing in the nineties.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:36] And, uh, but most of my friends were in the arts.

[00:16:39] And so I was very envious of all of my friends who were in the arts.

[00:16:42] So I really thought that I wanted to explore that.

[00:16:45] So I, but I didn't do anything about it because I didn't have the confidence to pursue it.

[00:16:50] So I, you know, got a job, really hated it.

[00:16:54] I got another job, really hated it with that for a long time.

[00:16:58] And then on a whim, I went to Sheridan college for ceramics.

[00:17:02] I took a class at, uh, one of the schools that is no longer, uh, uh, teaching ceramics in Toronto, uh, called George Brown college.

[00:17:12] And they had a ceramics program at the time.

[00:17:14] And I took it just as a continuing education student.

[00:17:17] And I really wasn't good at it, but liked the, the difference in my, you know, having that outlet was really great.

[00:17:27] So on a whim, I just decided to go to Sheridan college and I got in and then, uh, it was the hardest thing I've ever done.

[00:17:36] It was so hard.

[00:17:37] It was all just technique.

[00:17:40] And I mean, there was a lot of rigorous critiques.

[00:17:44] There was a lot of technique, had to learn how to throw.

[00:17:48] I'm not very good at throwing, uh, but it was so special.

[00:17:52] It was just the most, um, it still is like one of, I think probably the best program in Canada for, for ceramics.

[00:18:01] And it's gone through a bunch of different iterations, but it's just, it's a wonderful place.

[00:18:05] And then I set up a studio with some colleagues for six years and never thought that I'd go to grad school.

[00:18:11] And then I guess another sort of wave of what am I doing with my life?

[00:18:17] Happened.

[00:18:19] So I decided to move to Ohio and go to the Ohio State University.

[00:18:24] They have a really good ceramics program there and it was fully funded.

[00:18:27] So that was amazing.

[00:18:29] And I did that for two years and stayed actually, cause I really just liked being there and stayed for a year.

[00:18:35] And then I came back and did a residency at Harborfront Center, which is one of the preeminent residencies in Canada as well.

[00:18:43] It has given a lot of my colleagues their sort of start in the ceramics world.

[00:18:51] And I did that for three years and it was again, such an amazing experience.

[00:18:55] I got my first, I was able to exhibit my new work from grad school in large scale wall installation.

[00:19:03] And that really propelled me into getting more of those opportunities.

[00:19:09] And it just sort of like, I was on a really good trajectory after that showing and, and developing my work.

[00:19:16] And I did a residency in Berlin for three months, which was funded by the Winifred Schantz Award.

[00:19:23] Given out by the Canadian Clay and Glass Gallery in Waterloo.

[00:19:28] And so that was again, another amazing experience.

[00:19:31] So I think from, from there, I had a studio in Toronto for many years and then I had a child and then everything changed.

[00:19:41] Aged.

[00:19:44] And so we moved to a different city.

[00:19:47] Toronto was getting too expensive.

[00:19:49] And now I have a home studio here in Hamilton, Ontario.

[00:19:51] Ontario.

[00:19:53] And it's wonderful, but it is a little different than being in a, in a big studio with lots of people.

[00:20:01] Yeah, no kidding.

[00:20:02] What's the, that's the big difference there for you.

[00:20:04] I mean, being, I often feel a little isolated in my studio because I'm all by myself like you, right?

[00:20:11] What, what for you is the difference between working with a group in a bigger setting with lots of people around you versus working in your own studio?

[00:20:20] Well, I mean, the benefits are definitely more focused, more quiet.

[00:20:27] And also because I have a nine-year-old, it's so easy to kind of flow in between home and studio.

[00:20:35] I don't have to actually go anywhere.

[00:20:38] Um, so I can get kind of more things done.

[00:20:41] But the one thing that obviously is missing is camaraderie and just that constant ability to ask someone, Hey, what do you think of this?

[00:20:52] Is this working?

[00:20:53] Can I ask you how to do this thing that you're doing?

[00:20:56] You know, what glaze should I use for this?

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:20:59] That stuff is definitely not there.

[00:21:04] Now, you know, one of the things that you said earlier when you were talking was that you didn't have any confidence.

[00:21:08] Maybe that was early on in your, um, approach to clay.

[00:21:12] And, and I'm kind of interested in, and, but I, I also hear you being a very confident person of taking risks and jumping into residencies and applying for things.

[00:21:22] And doing things spontaneously based on your, your, your inner voice.

[00:21:27] Uh, what's, what's helped you build your confidence over time as an artist?

[00:21:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:43] I think just persevering has been the thing that has really helped me, um, just working every day or trying to work every day as much as I can.

[00:21:59] Um, uh, just constantly trying to develop, even if it's incremental, um, develop my work, push my work forward.

[00:22:08] And then certainly all the, the opportunities that I, opportunities that I've had to show and to sell my work.

[00:22:16] And those things have boosted my confidence a lot.

[00:22:20] And, and, you know, but it's true.

[00:22:24] There is a lot of, there's a lot of self doubt in that.

[00:22:28] I think for like a lot of artists, maybe not everyone, but there is a lot of questioning.

[00:22:34] Like, am I doing the right thing?

[00:22:35] Is this how I should be spending my life?

[00:22:39] But it's interesting that I just can't seem to stop.

[00:22:42] Even when I feel like I should stop.

[00:22:45] I'm like, I should have a job doing something else.

[00:22:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:50] I hear you.

[00:22:51] I think a lot of people that I talk to, you know, on the podcast and, and personally, uh, it's almost like they get addicted to clay in a way, right?

[00:22:59] You just can't let it go once you start.

[00:23:01] Yeah.

[00:23:02] It would be very hard.

[00:23:03] Yeah.

[00:23:04] Yeah.

[00:23:04] Absolutely.

[00:23:05] Hey, tell us a little, I'm really, of course, this podcast is about color and ceramics.

[00:23:09] And so I'm interested in surface design and you've got some really interesting surfaces on lots of your work.

[00:23:16] Can you tell us a little bit about how you approach the surface and the, the use of, uh, color and, and, and that in your imagery?

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:26] So, um, initially the black and white work that I did when I was a student, um, actually has popped back up into my work now.

[00:23:39] I'm, I brought it back and it's so amazing.

[00:23:43] I just love that when you're being an artist and you can sort of look at things from your past and be like, oh, I actually want to try that again.

[00:23:50] And so instead of using the carving on, you know, lots of like functional forms, I've started using them on sculptural forms.

[00:23:59] And I, what I love about the, doing the surface design with all these different, like I use a lot of just like flower imagery, but there's always a couple, you know, sort of significant little moments.

[00:24:09] Like there's an animal or there's an image of, I used to put myself in my work a lot.

[00:24:14] Um, but I love the idea of like carving around these, around the forms and sort of seeing how the form either, um, sort of interacts with the drawings or the carving.

[00:24:28] And so a lot of what I'm doing now is like covering an animal's head in the, in the carving or scafido and it's like obscuring the form, but also in parts it's supporting the form.

[00:24:40] And I just, I just really love that interplay between the form and the, and the drawing.

[00:24:46] Um, in terms of color, I actually have started adding more color into my work just recently.

[00:24:51] Uh, I've started hand building some things.

[00:24:54] I've started putting the animals, the little porcelain slip cast animals.

[00:24:59] I've started putting them on bases made out of different kinds of clay.

[00:25:02] I've got about six clay bodies going in my studio right now.

[00:25:05] Wow.

[00:25:06] It's kind of confusing.

[00:25:10] But I'm using like some dark stonewares.

[00:25:13] I'm just, I'm building them these environments.

[00:25:14] And I'm, I'm also shaping some, just, just some shapes.

[00:25:19] I don't even know what they are.

[00:25:20] I'm just doing some pinching and, and shaping some little objects and I'm dipping them in, in, sometimes I'm just getting dipping them in commercial glazes.

[00:25:29] I've got some glazes that I've made that are from classes that I did long ago.

[00:25:32] I'm just trying out all these different colors.

[00:25:35] So bright colors and, um, sort of seeing how they work.

[00:25:42] And the interesting thing is that with these new sculptures that I'm doing, which are on my website, if you want to see them, um, where the animals are sort of in these different environments.

[00:25:52] I'm actually firing everything separately.

[00:25:55] And then taking it all out and then epoxying them together, which in my day at Sheridan was definitely a no, no, but, but things have changed a lot.

[00:26:08] So it's, it's really just kind of what I, I feel like it's a new whole new process and I'm using an epoxy that is color.

[00:26:17] So the epoxy becomes part of the sculpture.

[00:26:19] It's not just a way to adhere things on.

[00:26:25] So I find that really cool.

[00:26:28] Yeah.

[00:26:28] What epoxy are you using for that?

[00:26:30] It's called Apoxy and it's, um, I just get it from a sculpture supply place here in Toronto and it's comes in all different colors, but you can also mix the colors a little bit so that you can get some shades.

[00:26:44] And I find that there's just, you know, if I've got a green thing that I've got, I have a green glazed object that I want to put on a brown base.

[00:26:52] I used to use the green epoxy and then I make it obvious that that's what it is as opposed to just trying to hide it with like glue.

[00:27:03] Yeah, that's very interesting.

[00:27:05] I know one of my mentors said to me one day, well, Bob, you know, you're doing sculpture.

[00:27:09] You can really do whatever you want.

[00:27:11] You can sandblast it.

[00:27:12] You can break it apart.

[00:27:13] You can stick it back together with epoxy.

[00:27:15] And I went, oh, wow.

[00:27:17] Exploded in terms of my mind.

[00:27:18] Right.

[00:27:18] Cause I had always thought, oh, I've got to have it all together with some sort of slip and connected in the kiln and, and then pray that it won't explode when you pull it out.

[00:27:28] Well, yeah.

[00:27:29] And I'm trying to make things taller and bigger and the way to do that.

[00:27:33] I don't have a, I have a big fish kiln, but I don't have a massive kiln cause I'm not at an institution or anything.

[00:27:39] So firing them things in parts and then attaching them later is a really good way to be able to get bigger without having to, you know, have a massive kiln.

[00:27:50] Yeah.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:51] For sure.

[00:27:51] Now, are you using under glazes, slips?

[00:27:56] I know you just talked about using some colored glazes.

[00:27:59] Do you use any of those procedures to kind of get some of your shades?

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:04] I'm using actually, I use a lot of the Amaco under glazes.

[00:28:09] They're, they're great cause they don't change much in the firing.

[00:28:13] So I'm not a big atmospheric, put something in the kiln and see what happens kind of person.

[00:28:20] I, that part of it just drives me a bit crazy.

[00:28:26] But yeah.

[00:28:27] So I use a lot of things that I know what I kind of have an idea of what they're going to look like when they come out.

[00:28:32] So under glazes, slips, I use a lot of gold luster, much to my bank accounts.

[00:28:41] It's very expensive, but it's, you know, sparingly it's nice to use.

[00:28:45] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:46] I was, I'm looking at a piece right now of a, an animal with some horns where you've put the gold luster on the horns, right?

[00:28:53] And it really makes that pop.

[00:28:55] You know, it really brings your eye to that part of the piece.

[00:28:59] And, and then that gets you into wondering why she's done that.

[00:29:04] What's going on here in this piece?

[00:29:07] Oh, it's with the gold?

[00:29:09] Yeah.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] Well, you know, I started out just kind of glazing little bits of the animals.

[00:29:16] Cause mostly I don't, I, the animals, I don't really glaze them at all.

[00:29:19] I just love the way that the clay looks when it comes out of the kiln.

[00:29:23] Just, just that vitrified cone six porcelain just looks really, really nice.

[00:29:30] And again, also the black underglaze does have this like nice little sintering quality.

[00:29:36] But I found that I was glazing little tips of things like maybe a, an eye or, or sometimes there were, they would have like a, something torn off of them.

[00:29:48] And I'd glaze that little bit in just like a clear glaze.

[00:29:51] And it was mostly to signify that that part was maybe wet.

[00:29:55] Like the rest of it was dry.

[00:29:56] The rest of the animals dry.

[00:29:57] And then there was just like this little bit of wetness.

[00:29:59] Like maybe it signified blood.

[00:30:00] Maybe it signified something that was just, you know, a little bit, you know, a little bit gruesome.

[00:30:06] And then I realized that gold luster would really accentuate that more than just the clear glaze.

[00:30:13] I like the clear glaze because it's very subtle, but sometimes it's nice to have, again, like that way in you were talking about.

[00:30:21] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:22] Sometimes, sometimes you can be subtle and sometimes you need a fist to kind of say, hey, look over here.

[00:30:28] So yeah, you know, that makes perfect sense to me.

[00:30:31] Absolutely.

[00:30:32] Absolutely.

[00:30:32] So you're teaching at Sheridan, are you not?

[00:30:36] Yes, I am.

[00:30:37] So you run into a lot of people who are maybe earlier on in their career, I'm guessing.

[00:30:43] Yeah.

[00:30:45] What advice might you give?

[00:30:46] Like here we are, you're in this podcast and thousands of people are going to listen to this.

[00:30:52] What advice might you give to a young potter?

[00:30:58] Or I shouldn't say young and somebody early on in their, in their journey.

[00:31:04] You got any thoughts about that?

[00:31:07] I mean, the main thing for me was just, just working as much as you possibly can.

[00:31:13] And it's maybe going to have to come at some sacrifice where you, you know, renting a studio,

[00:31:20] but try and do that as inexpensively as possible.

[00:31:23] Work with a bunch of other people, you know, things are much more expensive than they were

[00:31:27] when I left school in 2002.

[00:31:31] So I understand that it's really hard to do it, but if there's any way you can have a part-time

[00:31:38] job instead of a full-time job or, you know, make your costs at your studio lower so that

[00:31:43] you can work more and, and just put as much energy as you can into that part of your life

[00:31:52] because it will pay off.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:54] You really do need to do the work, don't you?

[00:31:57] Yeah.

[00:31:58] Every day.

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:31:59] If you can.

[00:32:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:01] One of the things that I've started doing and has been to do things in series as opposed

[00:32:06] to doing one-offs, right?

[00:32:08] And I think that has really helped me.

[00:32:11] Have you noticed that in some of your students' work?

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:17] I mean, I only have them for one class.

[00:32:20] So unfortunately I don't get to see, but I teach them something very specific, which is

[00:32:24] mold making and slip casting.

[00:32:25] So they have full projects and they start out really being fearful of the, of the process

[00:32:34] and the material because plaster is just such a different thing.

[00:32:37] And then, but yeah, they do work in these, in these little, like the first project is

[00:32:41] a series of, of 10 and then the second project is a series of 10.

[00:32:46] And then, you know, they really do.

[00:32:47] So my thing is, yeah, if you don't, don't just do one because it'll, you won't get the

[00:32:53] answers that you need.

[00:32:55] So, but then do 10 and show me five.

[00:32:59] Oh, you're a nice professor.

[00:33:01] That's very good.

[00:33:02] That's, that's a good way.

[00:33:04] Hey, you know, your, your work must be shown in galleries and, and so on.

[00:33:08] And I think that there's been quite a shift over the last few years about how artists sell

[00:33:15] their work and how we get our work out there.

[00:33:18] What, what's been your experience with that?

[00:33:20] What, what are you seeing out there these days?

[00:33:22] Yeah, I'm in a confusing place right now in my career.

[00:33:29] I am, I've taken, I've, I've taken a little bit of step back from, from exhibiting a lot

[00:33:36] because I've been, you know, raising a kid and just moving to Hamilton and just, you know,

[00:33:41] different things have been going on.

[00:33:43] My husband's doing a PhD, so there's a lot of happening.

[00:33:48] Um, but I think that, yeah, a lot more people are selling online and through Instagram, which

[00:33:54] I haven't done yet.

[00:33:55] Uh, I'm like one of those technologically challenged people that doesn't do those things very easily.

[00:34:04] But I have a gallery in Saskatchewan that sells my work and I sell at the Gardner Museum

[00:34:10] and at Craft Ontario to, you know, ceramic or yeah, craft based shops.

[00:34:15] Um, but yeah, I'm, I would love to sell more.

[00:34:19] So I'm not sure how I'm going to pursue that.

[00:34:23] Um, I'm doing a, uh, like a retail show this fall for, you know, right before, right before

[00:34:30] the holidays, hoping that that will give me, and I'm making work that I don't put in galleries.

[00:34:35] I'm, I'm making like a, a lot of work that's, you know, like ornaments and cups.

[00:34:40] And so I think everyone has a bit of a, like a little side hustle like that, where, you

[00:34:44] know, people make their, their, if they're a sculptor, they make, they make sculptures

[00:34:48] that are shown in exhibitions and in some galleries.

[00:34:52] And then they often have like, you know, I'm going to make a run of cups or I'm going to

[00:34:56] make a run of roaches.

[00:34:58] Or so I think that's kind of an interesting way to go about it, which is maybe I'm trying

[00:35:02] that, see what happens.

[00:35:04] Some things at different price points.

[00:35:06] You need things that are, you know, below a hundred dollars for people to be able to

[00:35:10] afford that.

[00:35:11] And then things between a hundred and a thousand.

[00:35:14] And sometimes we need things way over a thousand.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:17] And sometimes, you know, there's not always someone who's willing to spend $5,000 on a

[00:35:21] sculpture.

[00:35:21] I mean, I've had that happen, but it doesn't happen enough to make a living on.

[00:35:28] Yeah.

[00:35:29] Yeah, for sure.

[00:35:31] But I think there are some people out there who won't spend anything under a thousand.

[00:35:36] And so therefore you need to have a couple of things to be able to make people.

[00:35:40] Oh yeah.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:41] Yeah.

[00:35:41] The work that I'm making now is what I'm sort of, it's, it's like I'm proposing an

[00:35:46] exhibition with it.

[00:35:49] And then I will write, if I get an exhibition, then I will write a grant.

[00:35:54] And that's sort of also how I make a living is I, which is again, it's very tenuous.

[00:35:59] You don't know if you're going to get the grant, but I've had, I've had a lot of success

[00:36:02] with Ontario Arts Council and Canada Council for the Arts.

[00:36:06] So if I have a confirmed exhibition, then I definitely try and work that into how I'm

[00:36:14] going to, you know, kind of fund the show.

[00:36:16] So, but yeah, definitely the work that I have now is, is all work that would be, you know,

[00:36:22] kind of higher end price range.

[00:36:26] And it's interesting that you brought up the issue of grants because often that's a way

[00:36:31] for artists to get moving on their work and, and provide some stability.

[00:36:37] And, and there's, and my experience of writing and getting grants, you have to try it.

[00:36:43] Like you have to get out there and write the grants and, and you might not get one, but you

[00:36:47] learn from doing the grant just as much as you learn from throwing a piece on the wheel

[00:36:52] and, and you get better at writing grants.

[00:36:55] Oh, definitely.

[00:36:57] I've been doing it for 10, more than 10 years now.

[00:37:00] And I've, you know, I've gotten quite a few and it just gives you this breather of, you

[00:37:05] know, okay, I don't have to worry about my, my monthly expenses are being taken care of.

[00:37:09] All I have to do is focus on the work.

[00:37:11] And also writing about your work is a great way to hone what your work is about to yourself.

[00:37:19] So I found that it's been, it's, it's torture writing.

[00:37:23] Yes.

[00:37:24] You have to check a lot of boxes, but you know, it's really important when you write that

[00:37:30] proposal, you, you under, you learn so much more about what you're actually doing.

[00:37:34] Cause you're trying to fit it into a framework of like proposing an exhibition or proposing

[00:37:38] a work session that you need to accomplish these things.

[00:37:42] And it gives you a great deadline and deadlines are also very, very crucial to me anyway.

[00:37:50] Yep.

[00:37:50] I'm with you there.

[00:37:51] I will make, I will make a commitment to a future time and I always meet it because that's

[00:37:57] who I am.

[00:37:58] But if I didn't have that future time that I made the commitment, sometimes I'll let things

[00:38:03] go.

[00:38:03] And so grants are very like that, right?

[00:38:05] You have to get it in by a certain date or you miss it.

[00:38:08] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:10] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Hey, well, you know, this has been great.

[00:38:12] Is there anything that you think you'd like to share with the audience about your work

[00:38:18] or about ceramics that we have not talked about?

[00:38:22] Hmm.

[00:38:24] Um, well, actually one thing I was, you know, before we spoke, I was racking my brain to sit

[00:38:31] here to talk about like who I look at and whose work.

[00:38:34] Oh yeah.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:36] And I just want to say that for me, it's really important to look at other work a lot.

[00:38:41] Um, not necessarily like ceramic work, but just go and look at visual culture in whatever

[00:38:48] way that makes sense for you.

[00:38:51] Um, I love going to galleries and museums.

[00:38:55] Sometimes that's kind of like I take, when I get to go on a trip, it's usually like a work

[00:38:59] related sort of art research trip.

[00:39:03] And that's really great.

[00:39:04] I also have a lot of images just on my walls.

[00:39:07] And I think it's just really important to, you know, surround yourself with, with other,

[00:39:16] with work and with art.

[00:39:19] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:19] I would agree completely with you.

[00:39:21] And, and not only ceramic work, but other work, paintings and weaving and, and all sorts

[00:39:28] of crafts that can, uh, generate an idea in your mind or connect one thing to another

[00:39:35] for you that might not have been there before.

[00:39:37] Oh yeah, definitely.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:41] Hey, Janet, I really appreciated meeting you today and, uh, getting more of a better understanding

[00:39:47] of your work and how you approach things.

[00:39:49] And so I really appreciate you being here today.

[00:39:52] Thank you.

[00:39:53] It was really fun.

[00:39:54] I was happy to talk to you.

[00:39:56] Great.

[00:39:57] Thank you.

[00:40:00] Thanks for listening to the Color and Ceramics Podcast with Bob Acton and his guests.

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