Margaret Keelan: Surface Design Extraordinaire

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: The nice thing about it, if I don't have so many deadlines, that makes me able to,

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_03]: hey, I think I'm going to do something in post-itland. It's going to be fun.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to have all these squiggle things out of them because I don't have a deadline

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_03]: so I can experiment. So that shift for me has been freeing.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Bob Acton and I'm pleased to share my conversation with the award-winning sculptor

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Margaret Keelan. Trained at the University of Saskatchewan, Canada and at the University

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of Utah in the United States, Keelan was taught under the great Joe Fafard and Marilyn Levine.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She eventually moved to California where she now resides. And she joined the faculty at

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the San Francisco Academy of Art where she taught graduate and undergraduate level ceramics

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: classes. Margaret produces some fantastic figurative work that I'm sure you'll love when you check

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: out her work on Instagram or at the John Natsula's gallery in Davis, California. All that information

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: are in the show notes. So let's get to the interview.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Colour and Ceramics, the podcast for ceramic artists who want valuable ideas

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: about using color from leading artists and world-class experts. Here's your host,

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and how potters, sculptors

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and artists use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color,

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: techniques and the impact of color on people and art itself.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Margaret, thanks so much for joining us today on the Colour and Ceramics podcast. I'm

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: excited that you're here with us today.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you for inviting me.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's absolutely great that you're here. I really love your use of color and texture

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and that you have on your work. And there's certainly a theme there to your work that

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you've had for a number of years now. So I'm really excited about talking with you about

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: how you approach your surface design.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. But before we get going talking about those kinds of things,

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if you could give the audience a little sense of your journey in clay. And

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I know when you and I were at the conference last week, and that was at the California

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Conference for the Advancement of Ceramic Arts. That's a mouthful. And you and I were there

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: in California. We had a great time having a conversation down there. We, you and I,

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: both realized that we were from Saskatchewan. And for many of the people in the audience,

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll see if you can spell Saskatchewan. And so that was nice to see that we had some commonality

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: there. But I wonder if you could just sort of tell people a little bit about where you've

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: come from and what you're doing these days?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was raised in England. And then my family moved to Saskatchewan. And I went through

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: college, high school and college there. And I think I ended up in the arts section of the

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: University of Saskatchewan. But it wasn't until I saw work, it was actually interesting, it was

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: during Vietnam War. And we got an artist there called Jim Thornsbury from Seattle. What he

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: brought was some astonishing images of the work that was being done in ceramics in California.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So Patty Washington, who's still around was one of those people that got me very excited.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was all sorts of people. And on the sort of outer rim of that was Peter Valkus. But it was

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the whole renaissance in ceramics in California. And that was when I was going to the end of my

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: school, schooling, college schooling. And I just got incredibly excited because up until

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: that point, like a lot of young, very young artists and Breonna artists were always searching for a

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: voice or always searching for an image as we're accumulating experience and skills.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So that got me very excited. And it turns out that at that time, a very well known ceramic

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: artist, Marilyn Levine was working in Saskatchewan. She was from Alberta. She did a workshop in

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the summer in Saskatchewan invited by Jim Thornsbury. And then she ultimately went down

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: to Salt Lake City, Utah and then moved on to California in order to join the crew, Peter Valkus

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: being a particular friend of hers. And to go to join a group that was at the Dome in Oakland.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So she basically, she was a real mentor. She was very, very supportive of me. And she did

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: trompe l'oeil ceramics. But at that point, I wasn't interested in that particular approach.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But I did go down to Salt Lake City to study with her. She got me in, you know.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I worked with her. Then I moved also on to the Bay Area and was influenced by a lot of what

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: was going on. But I was very interested in the figure, which was fascinating because

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_03]: nobody was doing figure. And a lot of people who were interested in figurative work in

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: ceramics, and there's a lot of them now, my age would say the same thing. They're

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: taught in very many places. But I really liked that. As a matter of fact, I got into a bit of a

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: spat with Mal and over that because I said, oh, I like it. She said, but I don't, but I like it.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So we got into figurative works. But then when I went into the Bay Area, I basically

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: wanted to increase my skills. So I had a model. I was working from the figure in porcelain.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And at that time, I didn't know anything about the techniques involved in modeling

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: a figure. So I would do it solid in porcelain and it would blow up in the kiln, and then I would

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_03]: build them all back together. It looked very contemporary, inadvertent, contemporary.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't until about 2008, interesting because I taught at the Academy of Art University,

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: which is sort of an academic figurative school in the Bay Area, one of the few on the East Coast.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So I really honed my figurative skills there. But I taught there for a number of years,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_03]: starting 1994. But it wasn't until 2008 that I just that I wanted to go with this sort of weathered

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: wood look. And I think it was because my art is sort of autobiographical and there is so buried in

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that image aspects of my own personality and my own personal journey. So that time I was getting

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: older, and I was growing up and realizing the changes that take place as you get more mature.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: That was a little late. But anyway, so what but there was a very important incident in which when

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I was before I got my teaching job, I and another friend of mine was scraping the interior of a house.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That's how you pick up a little extra cash, preparing it for painting. And this house was

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: owned by a guy for 20, 30, 40 years, most of his life. So our job was to scrape down

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the inside of the house layer upon layer upon layer of paint. And what I realized was that each color

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: of paint as we scraped it away represented a period of that person's life. And it was like the rings

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: of a tree and I that stayed with me. So when I get around to 2008, I'm thinking, well, you know,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I would love to do something like that. And I also liked the look of weathered wood. So

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: basically what happened was the concept preceded the technique. Because what I did then was do

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: test upon test upon test to get that look of weathered wood and then

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03]: blaked paint on weathered wood. So and that as I got better, you know, I got better took a number of

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: years to figure out how to do it without at all folding off. But that was how that evolved.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a combination of skill, skill plus concepts, you know, sort of fusing together.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Very interesting. You know, it's interesting that you say it took me a number of years. And I

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: remember listening to Lisa Clegg down in California. And she was she was doing a demo of her work.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was talking about how her use of her ability to get the figures she wants now

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: took her years and that she made many that she wasn't very happy with. And it's interesting,

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't it? How the evolution of our work takes so long when many of us want to have something done

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: quickly. Well, on the other hand, I'll tell you something this, this is very interesting. Because

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: of where I teach at a school, you could actually get to that point of skill within about a semester.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. If you're taught properly, you know, if you pop that figure in front of you and tell

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: you what the what their proportions are, you can actually learn that. But when you're coming from

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_03]: out out of that area, and you're picking this is my theory, if you're picking that because it

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_03]: resonates with you. What happened actually is that I stepped out of that academic figure school

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: because it held me too close. Because I would work with a model. I was so intent on making

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: it look like the model that I wasn't being inventive enough or interpretive enough in the figure.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So basically, what I did was that I stopped, I had to pull myself away. And that was why when

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I started to work with dolls. And now what I do is work for pictures, but I do not use a model

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: anymore when initially when I wanted to when I was fascinated with the figure, that's what

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I personally believe that people like Manuel Neary, people who have worked with the figure start off

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_03]: with that background. A lot of them and then and then so take it apart later on to make to

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: bring them a personal message into it. Just like you have with your dolls that you do now.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, could have saved a little time if I'd gone back to school.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That is true. That is true. But I suppose these days, many people are having struggles going to

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: a school because it's so expensive and time consuming. And you know that they're going to local

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: organizations and communities and guilds in order to learn some of the skills.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true. And also with me, the idea preceded the technique. So

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and then then I know enough to sort of take what I needed and then pull away. So often with the school

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_03]: you, you know, you the students go in there and they sort of develop their ideas when they get out,

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, their personal skillset. Yeah. Yeah, it's everybody has their own journey. That's for

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: sure. Absolutely. Now, now you've got some interesting forms that you have in your work.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk a little bit about how you deal with the relationship between the color and the surface

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and the form that you use? Well, initially, I wanted to do a disintegrating figure. So my first

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: image that I worked with was Santos figures and Americana, early American toys. In fact,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_03]: books, this was like 19, this was 2000. This was before we had the internet at our disposal.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So I would buy books on American sculptors that were made out of wood toys and how they started

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: to get a look at the surface and the simplicity of the form as if it had been.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So the story was this has been done out of wood. So I wanted to show that it had been formed

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: out of wood. So my earlier work about, see, my earlier work about early 2000 were basically inspired

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: by Santos figures because so that, you know, there were basically early colonial

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: villages, sculptors, very small, you know, 20 to 30 inches high, and they were done in the

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: colonies. So there's not particularly good history attached to them, but you can find them in

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: South and Central America. And they're rather exquisitely sculpted like the head and the hands,

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: but the body itself would be made out of simple wood because it would be clothed. So the older

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Santos, once they started to appear, had these exquisitely, but slightly decaying heads and hands,

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and then these basic wood forms also look a little ratty. So I thought those were so lovely.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So my earlier pieces look like that. And I also used 19th century porcelain heads.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So basically, I pulled them out from other centuries and other times, not contemporary images,

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_03]: to put those together. And then I started to work the surface and make the surface look

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_03]: like they were disintegrating. And the forms evolved from Santos figures, very simple, small,

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_03]: wooden puppets to Santos figures to dolls. And then now that's sort of a hybrid between the doll face

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and then a much more sophisticated, modeled hybrid child, you know, so they evolved over time.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the psychological message that you want to

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: give people with your use of that disintegrated surface. Yeah, thank you. It is a sort of multi-layer

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: because I really kind of enjoy it. It's like they're like a rug and they have all these threads

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: going together like a little tartan rug meeting in this one image. So number one, I did the phone,

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I use a child face not a not a because the forms kind of change over time according to

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the taste. So I use one that's not of our century even well maybe 1920s actually is my favorite

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: child look. So I pulled that out and it talks about the innocence of childhood. I remember when I was

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: younger, I thought well the moment something you know is discovered it will be fixed if there's

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: a flaw, you know. So there was this sort of fantasy of childhood and everything was sort

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: of magic and new and fresh. My childhood anyway, it was pretty good. So there was that and then

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_03]: there was the as you grow older and then there was the fresh and new of all the surfaces and

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: then as you grow older, that surface starts to decline and it's not and I mean that physically

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: as well as mentally but there is a sort of underneath there you can find your authentic

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: person. You become more real, you can become if you're lucky. You kind of really find yourself

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and find out who you are and figure out who you are. I mean that is what we would wish more

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: as we grow up and older and then we fall apart at the end but there's a point when we don't.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So there was that and actually there was a period in which I did little ballet dances

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and when I was growing up in England ballet was really big. My go to Fontaine and

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: there's just post war 1950s and there I used to read comic books, English comic books

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: and the ballet dancer was also a detective. So it was very you know empowering for a young girl to

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: realize that you could be feminine and you could be a kickass detective. These were children's

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: comic books and I never forgot that juxtaposition of female empowerment ballet and all that so

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: that's another layer of childhood and empowerment and growing up and growing older and looking back

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: at your younger self and that's also why I include animals and it's usually cats, dogs, the animals

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_03]: that surround me because I live in an urban setting but I live by a creek and there you know when a

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: squirrel comes it's magic to me. A wild creature you know they're not really you know but that's

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it's exciting to me. I don't live in the country so that's woven in also imagery that I see from

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: my door that woven into my pieces. Wow very complex ideas that people can engage with when they see your

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: work. I know when I was recently in California I got a chance to see your work in person and sometimes

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know when we see things digitally on the internet it's not quite as good as when you see it

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in person. I wonder how you so you've got some interesting strategies with the your use of materials.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about color and how you use color to inform your piece?

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: My pieces are basically, I noticed that it was interesting that you mentioned the piece that

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_03]: was in the gallery. It's a few years old it's one of my older pieces but I really like it. It's from

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_03]: my personal collection I try and hold on to a few pieces but I did notice that it was a very

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_03]: where it was it really contrasted with the rest with the rest of the work because it was so dark

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_03]: dark and sort of rich and sort of monochromatic. There was not a lot of color and and the

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: colors initially that I used were also sort of antiquey colors you know like off-white and not

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: snow white or a certain kind of blue that look kind of old fashioned blue. They weren't bright colors

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_03]: they were kind of dark colors. I've used red sometimes on bases just because you know sometimes

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I do things just because a lot of them. They're all dark because I do do a dark wash. I build up

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_03]: my surfaces over time and do multiple firings so that darkness is as a result of a dark wash

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: over the whole thing and that is also what I teach because I have a history of I've taught for a

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: sculptural surfaces way more differently than I would approach say wheel throne work.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_03]: They are approached as a painterly aspect so to give you complete control over it so I use

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_03]: you know under glazes I use stained slips I use washes I use dry brushing I use painterly techniques

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_03]: as opposed to what we would normally think of ceramics techniques techniques.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: The colors I use they muted colors because I want to keep that antique used look. I don't want it to

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: be bright and crisp and clean because that's not the point of my pieces. Very interesting so

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you use sort of a mix as you said of slips and under glazes and stains and probably a variety

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of other things that you get in there that's really interesting. What has been some of your

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: challenges that you've had to do this complex work? The first challenge I got was to get

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: that flaked look to stay on. Of course. That took a you know a multiple it was sort of like

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: tombstone technology as my brother the engineer said you know if it screws up it doesn't work

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: you know so you actually have to try it experiential a lot of this because and kilns fire differently.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_03]: My kiln is not fired by computer it's fired by cone and it fires differently than a kiln firing

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_03]: by computer so that's one of the challenges I have to be completely consistent in firing in the same

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_03]: kiln you know because there's you know I sometimes only have like a 20 degree difference between the

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: piece looking really crisp and and crackled and the piece looking smoother and cleaner and not

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: what I want so that's an I always sort of fire and refire and also if something doesn't work out

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I simply have to grind it off and put it back in the kiln or you know I also to get transitions

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I would also use paint. I mean so I'm not shy about that use non-ceramic surfaces and a lot of

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_03]: sculptural ceramic artists do that just to get what I want to get because it's hard to get

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: transitions of color and subtle transitions if you're using just ceramic surfaces.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it's interesting you're talking about a 20 degree difference in your kiln you know the precision

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're working with is really quite interesting and and then you also talk about how if you don't

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like it you're just going to grind it off and start all over again on the piece right that's

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that's interesting is that something that a younger sculptor or potter could consider doing?

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes I mean but it's so fun with my students it's really adorable they say it's cracked

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_03]: it's cracked it's horrible it doesn't work anymore you know and they're just they're so dismayed that

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_03]: it's not perfect I said ah cracking is your friend you can do all sorts of things with it you

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: know glue it for example yeah so the thing that I teach my students is it's not the end of the

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_03]: world if it cracks or blows up or does anything because there's so many things you can do with

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: it and it's right it's something I think it's a challenge for young sculptors specifically not

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: necessarily wheel throwing because if you once you acquire the skill of wheel throwing it takes you

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: just a few minutes to throw on the wheel so you're thinking in large numbers of pieces

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: you sculpted can take you a month to get a piece sculpted so that I found that my students are

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: much less willing to take risks and much more devastated if the thing doesn't turn out

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you've been you've invested so much time

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely yes they're very dismayed if I you know if it doesn't work out perfectly but I have

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_03]: all sorts of you know arrows in my quiver to pull one out say here try this do this do that

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and there are there's there's all sorts of you know post-firing techniques also that

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_03]: my pieces I'm working with porcelain right now like I did when I first started out

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_03]: and that is a very unforgiving surface because it's very white to pivot back to my my surfaces

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_03]: that I'm most known for they're very easy to fix because the surface is so busy

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: so if you break it it's very easy to patch it and to match the patch

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's so imperfect to begin with so yes absolutely so you're using porcelain now and you

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: used to use porcelain you went through a transition of using other clays can you talk a little bit about

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the clay that you use and what you like or dislike about them yeah when I for porcelain if you want

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: to sculpt in porcelain and do something larger than a few inches it's kind of a dumb thing to do

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: but there are some people that uh there are some people that do beautiful works of porcelain

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Crystal Morey comes to mind she does sculptor and porcelain but when I first started out

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_03]: graduated I really knew very little about clays so I started out with porcelain this was 1980s to

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_03]: 90s because it was a nice clay you know and I would paint on top of it and it was wonderful

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: to paint with oil paints on top of it so because I was out of school that's what I had to do

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and I just had one kill um then I when I pivoted into doing what when I went to school to teach

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_03]: that was when I started to really study surfaces because I had to teach it so then I started to

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: use um one very important thing I realized when I started to teach in a in a school of

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: sculptor was that you didn't have to take the clay up to its point of vitrification

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: because the higher you took it the more it would shrink and the more it would warp

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: so we took a lot of our pieces fairly low even if it was a stoneware clay so that's another thing

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and of course painting clay you know you can do that because you're sculpting so I had to let go

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of my ceramic background when I started to teach at a school that taught figurative sculptor

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: so um but I actually picked the clay that I use on the wood pieces for its color

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and because it was easier to sculpt fairly large and that's the first thing I teach my students is

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_03]: the first the first decision you make is what you're going to make the second thing is how

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_03]: you're going to make and your choice of clay is that part of that now that being said I worked

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: in porcelain because I just love it so I struggle along to make larger-scale porcelain pieces

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_03]: well basically I wouldn't recommend it to anybody because it's so challenging it's very challenging

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I guess one of the things that strikes me about that story you just told is that

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: is that when we work with pottery as opposed to sculpture there's a lot of I'll call them

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: rules that we have you know that the the glaze must fit well so it doesn't crack and it's got to be

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: food safe and so on and so forth which are very appropriate for that kind of work but sometimes

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that message get trinkets put upon sculptors and so I know I felt that way when I started to do some

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: sculptural work that oh gosh it's got to be this and it's got to be that but I think that

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I've learned and I've heard from you and other guests on the show here is that in sculpture

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you there are hardly any rules you can really do what you want with the piece yeah the only rule I have

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I do have a few rules because I have to ship my work so I have to I have to basically and I have to

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: move my work and put it into a kiln because it's a it's a column so I have to lift it up put it

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_03]: down and you know what my pieces are 31 inches high the larger standing pieces so basically

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03]: they're designed to be moved and designed to be shipped I was talking to one zing yang who makes

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03]: there's these gigantic pieces I said did you you do do them in sections and he says well

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_03]: he puts them all together because they can be moved they're so big that he basically moves them on

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: a palette and puts them into it so he doesn't have to worry about that but somebody like myself

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_03]: who's like does everything on us everything on a smaller scale it has I have to and I have to do

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: it all myself I have to bear in mind what's going to happen to these pieces once I've built them

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and where they're going how I'm going to handle them yeah that's an interesting thing that I've

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: learned like if I've learned that if I put something small and fine then it's really hard

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to pack it and move it and ship it and it's easily broken and so many of the I guess what

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting at is that what we're thinking about today as we're building something we have to think

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: about what it's going to be like when it's done and when we're shipping it yes yes and being a

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_03]: being an artist with a you know with a gallery it's I've slowed down quite a bit because I've

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of sent me retired you know so I so if I want to pivot and do something different I can

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_03]: do that and if it doesn't work out I can do that I'm not under the gun like I used to be

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_03]: this is a bit of what we call squirreling I'm going off in another direction but

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_03]: when I have a deadline and I have to produce X number of pieces and they have to be shipped

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and packed and they have to get there in one piece that doesn't leave me a lot of room for

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_03]: experimentation so the nice thing about it if I if I'm not under don't have so many deadlines

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that makes me able to hey I think I'm going to do something in porcelain it's going to be

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: fun it's going to have all these squiggle things out of them because I don't I don't have a deadline

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: so I can experiment so that's that shift for me has been freeing and another word you've used

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: a few times is fun it seems to me that you've got to have some fun at least you do when you're

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: doing your work oh yes the process has to mean something I mean why else will we do it I mean

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: what artists when they can guarantee we're going to make a living or even any money off our work

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: so what is their left fun you know the challenge the the feeling you get from growing the image and

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_03]: the whole process of making creative decisions and the satisfaction you get out of that because

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_03]: you can't guarantee it's going to come from any place else yeah absolutely and I think also

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I know as I've evolved through working with clay I feel like I've grown as a result of that

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: through many of the challenges I might have with the actual piece itself helps me grow as a person

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_03]: do you see that in your students I do and I also think it's going to be kind of surprising

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_03]: um it's a whole idea where where your ideas come from when I was first starting out

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I would do something and it would resonate me by resonating little tickling your stomachs

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: ribs but you don't you may not know why that that feels why does Santos figures why does

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: rotting wood appeal to me you know and sometimes that's the clue I think that's coming

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: out from your unconscious that that then you have to kind of decipher if you feel like doing so it's

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of like therapy and I notice that my students um they will they'll start out with some kind of

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_03]: image from their I get a number of Chinese students so the image that they they they will put into

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_03]: my assignments will be images growing up on the internet growing up certain images around them

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and other students will pick other images you know so they'll start off with familiar images

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and as they develop they'll they'll mind they go a little deeper that's very interesting as we watch

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that process as people people get better well what advice would you have for a young person

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: starting off in clay uh what what what approaches should they take to allow that that growth to

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: occur well first of all they wouldn't need as Laura I always saw my students they need a place to work

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah you know they need a private place where where they can put their staff and where they can build

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_03]: they need the access to a kiln and they need an access to a community that's going to support them

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and then it access to a way to put the food on the table I mean these are practical things

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_03]: absolutely without those practical things baking taken care of you know you're not going to

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: you're not going to have the freedom to uh to to to work sort of to make work and allow that to

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: take you where you want to go you'll be so worried about you know all these other things

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean that's what I did frankly I I lived in a shoebox for I mean that metaphorically but

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: a shoebox for many years but the important thing was that it was inexpensive I had a little studio

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I had a kiln and I had a way of making a living so that allowed me to develop to just go in and work

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: you know in the studio whenever I was able to do so one of the things that I have heard from

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: a number of people is this notion of community and how important the community is can you

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about maybe what you see as the ideal way for our community to around clay to develop

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: well I think um the idea was of course school you know um uh I have met a lot of students who

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: graduate from school that say that was their their most creative time because they without any

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: effort they had that community and without any effort they had somebody guiding them where

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: it was not a gallery for example it was like a teacher so they had that mentorship and they had

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that community and and that community would go in and then talk about clay so anything that can

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of be like that like even the friends you have from well there are there I'm sort of

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: squirreling and there are there are sort of art centers where you can find friends there are

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: workshops I think workshops are very very popular Lisa clay does a kick-ass workshop and

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and just to put in a little ad for her but it also seems like there's there's a sort of um

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_03]: that's where you find friends is in a workshop environment and of course on the internet on

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_03]: instagram I get instagram a lot to find out other local artists and what they're doing

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and to find other artists in what they're doing so there are ways to build communities and and

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_03]: basically I have stayed in touch with people that I've met during you know students um and you know

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03]: we hang out together too but so there are various ways to find even one other person who does the

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: same thing I think that's really important yeah absolutely and and find a way for people to

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: gently critique each other and to be nice in that whole process as opposed to being mean which I think

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: many times young artists are afraid of the critique and sometimes people are too critical

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: in that process what are the thing about friends is that they never say anything critical

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: yes is that I just love that I think the work works really well is more by example

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: you know um then then by I don't use the word critiques I use evaluations

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03]: because I I remember when the time when I was six years old and somebody said they didn't like a

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_03]: piece and I never did it again you know so I I I don't like that whole approach because young

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: artists when they come out what they lack is confidence and I don't think it I don't think

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: it builds confidence to be critical you could also you can always make suggestions have you

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: thought about doing this or you thought about doing that and direct them without saying wow

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that looks a little bit like you know so I as a teacher I'm not a big fan of critiques critiques

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: yes absolutely I uh I'm like you I can remember early in my life when people made a critical

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: comment and that shut me down completely and and yet I was over taking some training in England

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a couple of years ago and we were to make this piece and the instructor came over and what I had made

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: was a piece of junk and I knew it was a piece of junk and he didn't say a thing he just sort of

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: looked at me and that was enough right to you know uh we didn't need to get into any details

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and uh and working with other people the conversation comes around to well what else could you try

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: as opposed to what you have you done wrong in this particular piece well it's to me it's the sandwich

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: you know you put something positive uh it is true that being said before I sound like a little angel

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I have told my students holy shit you know that's but only because I have spent a long time telling

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_03]: them that what they do is terrific yes so you know I can say something wow that's really great

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: you're doing very well wow that's not so good but that's really good so basically you're sandwiching

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: it you're building up their confidence and they say that is not up to your talent you know so

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in a way you can do it in a way that they you know that that they're okay with it you know

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah absolutely hey it's been awesome having this conversation with you here this morning Margaret

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it has been great is there anything that you would like to tell the audience that we haven't

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: touched on here that you think is important in the context of color and surface well of course um

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think experimentation and and not being afraid to experiment is really important yeah um

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a um I mean the reason why I ended up doing this sort of tramploi is because that is one

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_03]: of the assignments in my classes and it is astonishing how close you can get to

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_03]: something using clay if as long as you allow yourself that you know um and it's a really good

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: exercise it's not that meaningful to a lot of my students because you pull out the the concept

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and you pull out the invention and all it is is technical stuff so but it's a really good

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_03]: exercise and so that's I guess what I would say is that it is remarkable what there is out there

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: for ceramic artists to to play with and to experiment with yeah it's true playing experimenting trying

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a local potter said to me in every kiln firing there better be something in that kiln that's an

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: experiment and that was a good message to have that's true it's true and everything is flexible I

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03]: mean I always just tell myself it's glue is your friend you could glue things and I would say

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_03]: you know don't be precious about your work you know you can if it breaks you can find something

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: to do with it you can fix it or at least learn from it so yeah absolutely Margaret thanks so

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: much for spending some time with us today uh we appreciate it immensely thank you for your

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: invitation thanks for listening to the color and ceramics podcast with Bob Ackden and his guests

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