Michelle Gregor: Colour Supreme with a Leading American Sculptor

[00:00:00] Swoosh is overrated because I think when we begin we have this idea of perfection and what as the longer that you're in the field, you realize what we kind of yearn for is the hand made cup, you know, like the hand made cup with the imperfections that you can't buy a hundred piece set that looks all the same. You want something that has that feel of the human hand.

[00:00:28] I'm Bob Acton and I'm pleased to introduce Michelle Gregor to you today. I love Michelle's work and her use of color to enhance her sculptural pieces. She is one of the world's top sculptors and I'm so happy to have her here today to share a conversation with you.

[00:00:48] As I mentioned, she is considered a leading figure in the second generation of Bay Area Figuration out of California, USA. She is a multi-faceted artist who works in clay, bronze, paint and drawing media, handling each medium with a process oriented and intuitive approach that results in painterly forms and images.

[00:01:13] She has a masterful intuitive sense of color that unifies her productions in various media and she engages all of her work with a painterly figure that reflects her Bay Area roots and also her deep understanding of abstract expressionism.

[00:01:33] So let's get to the show and you can find all the links to access Michelle in the show notes.

[00:01:40] Welcome to Color in Ceramics, the podcast for Ceramic Artists who want valuable ideas about using color from leading artists and world class experts.

[00:01:50] Here's your host Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and help otters sculptors and artists use color in their work.

[00:02:00] Tune in as he talks with his guests about color techniques and the impact of color on people and art itself.

[00:02:06] Michelle, thank you so much for joining us here today on the Color in Ceramics podcast. I am super excited about having you here today. You know, I love your sculptures and your use of color and surface design and I'm crazy about your oranges and blues and a red you so.

[00:02:27] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:29] I'm so excited to be here and thank you for the opportunity to talk with you.

[00:02:35] Absolutely, this will be great. I think our folks will love your work if they're not familiar with you already and get a chance to understand how you think about color and surface design.

[00:02:45] You know, obviously your work has taken years for you to develop your style and your techniques and so on. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey in clay and kind of what got you here today?

[00:03:02] Sure. I think I really fell in love with Clay when I was an undergraduate at University of California in Santa Barbara.

[00:03:10] And I always thought that I was going to be a writer because I love to read.

[00:03:16] But when I went into college, I went in sort of the golden age and education, especially in California with the UC system.

[00:03:24] It was so different back then than we were just I just took all these things that I thought maybe I would be interested in.

[00:03:30] And printmaking, ceramics and when I found ceramics, I think it was the studio environment that really grabbed me.

[00:03:40] And the community, I think it was really the community of people that I've really felt like I found my place.

[00:03:47] And so that's where I started out.

[00:03:49] And I started out on the Potter's wheel and just got a real.

[00:03:57] I got really hooked on learning how to make shapes in space.

[00:04:02] And back at the time, back in the time this was like in that early 80s we had about five buckets of glaze.

[00:04:09] And there were all the standard glazes that we all recognize the temaku, the cellanon, you know, a handful of others, like literally there were five buckets of glaze.

[00:04:18] And a couple of pots on the counter with some, you know, cobalt oxides, some copper carbonate and to do some decorating with.

[00:04:27] And that was it.

[00:04:29] And that was my foundation.

[00:04:32] And I just kind of worked my way through various studios and found my, kind of my voice.

[00:04:40] I think I started doing sculpture when I went to graduate school at San Francisco State and one of my professors David Kuroka who was a thrower.

[00:04:51] He told me he said, you need to let go of the vessel because I started sculpting all these figures onto the vessel and the figures were really taking over the vessel.

[00:05:01] And he said, I think maybe you should try letting go of the vessel.

[00:05:04] And that pushed me into just making sculpture as far as being a colorist.

[00:05:12] I think that was just sort of an organic is the way it just sort of unfolded and materials have gotten so much better throughout the years like now we have.

[00:05:23] Candies, it's like being a kid in the candy store you can go into the ceramic supply and there's just everything.

[00:05:28] So that's kind of in the nutshell and then I started teaching and now I teach at a city college.

[00:05:37] So I actually never got out of the studio once I stepped in, I never got out.

[00:05:42] Yeah, it's funny how people get hooked with clay isn't it?

[00:05:45] It's addictive, I think, a healthy addiction of course.

[00:05:50] But certainly one that once you get touched, I don't know how many people I've spoken to on this podcast and in other parts of my world.

[00:05:58] And they'll say, oh yeah, I got into clay and I just never got out.

[00:06:02] Great.

[00:06:03] Funny about that.

[00:06:04] I wonder what it is.

[00:06:04] Do you think it's the, I'm thought this through at all but as we're talking, I've said it seems to me.

[00:06:09] Maybe it's that tactile nature of clay.

[00:06:12] It's getting our hands into the mocking the clay itself.

[00:06:15] I wonder if that's a component.

[00:06:18] I think it is and that was the first word that came up when you were asking what do you think it is?

[00:06:22] And the tactile was the first thing that came to my mind and I think that that's it.

[00:06:26] It's like we put an impression in there it is.

[00:06:30] And it's, there's something that's I think connects us to our childhood experience of you know playing out and you know making things out of nothing.

[00:06:42] That really appealed to me too.

[00:06:45] But definitely there is an aspect of the community which also is plays a big part in what we're talking about.

[00:06:52] I found love with clay because I have found that anywhere I go in this world if I can find a studio with people who work in clay, I find my people and I think that we are just a certain type of person that we're.

[00:07:07] Maybe it's the that tactile nature but I always love clay studios and I always love clay communities and clay people.

[00:07:18] That's great that is awesome.

[00:07:20] Hey, you know I'm really interested in what inspires people and I know these days things like Instagram can.

[00:07:32] I pull our attention away from the studio or away from our central work in many ways because we can spend not only time looking at all of those images but start to go oh maybe I should be doing that or I best be doing this.

[00:07:51] And and so I'm interested in what inspires you like what what what's at the root of many of your pieces these days.

[00:07:59] That's a great question.

[00:08:03] What I mean I'm inspired by so many different things and I think that my focus or my inspiration changes all the time even from day to day and for a minute to minute.

[00:08:15] But I think on a grand scale.

[00:08:17] My work is really inspired by.

[00:08:21] Sort of a sense of improvisation like I really like to see what the material will give me and then I can react to the material and then put it into the kiln and get it back so there's that sort of given take with the material so the material itself is really central to.

[00:08:40] My inspiration because it always surprises me you know about how many times I test.

[00:08:49] Colors or slips or stains or whatever and I open up the kiln and I'm constantly surprised and not always happily surprise but the clay you know it just like as you work as the longer that you work in clay you realize that the material itself.

[00:09:07] has so many variations like from the soft nature of clay and then as it stiffens up and as it holds its form or as it starts to slump and all that just just the material itself is super inspiring to me and that tactile quality that you mentioned before.

[00:09:26] I also am a big museum gore like I love looking at art and Instagram is one of those things where I can spend way too much time on I just love like filling my head with images I'm not one of those people who.

[00:09:41] I'm cutting myself off from looking at images because I think I'm going to be influenced like that does not concern me is more the better I just love seeing what people are doing I love looking at painters sculptors.

[00:09:57] I mean the world is so filled with so many different art forms and now they're at our fingertips so definitely I'm inspired by social media.

[00:10:08] And then of course the great inspiration for so many of us nature.

[00:10:15] And nature is an ending source of inspiration and I live in California Northern California I commute to work I commute along a really beautiful.

[00:10:26] Highway 280 that goes between San Francisco and San Jose and it goes along the coast and it is just breathtaking every I go I commute to work.

[00:10:39] Two days a week down to San Jose City College where I teach and the commute takes me about 50 minutes and every single day I'm just surprised at how beautiful it is and what the trees look like and how the trees change we have these beautiful oak trees that.

[00:10:58] You know they just like change all throughout the year and it's an ending fascination nature and just being out in nature so that's a big one for me too.

[00:11:09] And but it's the same for you up there in Canada.

[00:11:11] Absolutely I love nature I call it being out in the bush and maybe that sort of where I came from.

[00:11:17] But absolutely and lots of things that inspire me are the is the are the animals and the insects and those kinds of things and I personally I worry about biodiversity these days and that we are ruining our environment and so that's kind of a thing that catches me.

[00:11:36] Hey you know boy you talked about a lot of different things there when you talked about inspiration and and I was this may seem like a crazy thought but when you were talking I was thinking that really your your notion that the that the play speaks to you.

[00:11:54] And I think it's a great idea is the clay I guess at some level used to be alive right it was it was something in the earth whether it's the floor or the fauna and it ended up in the soil and down into clay.

[00:12:07] And in a way it's maybe alive again in our hands as it begins to speak to us because that is true isn't it we really do have to manage our relationship with the peace.

[00:12:20] I love that I love thinking about that and it's funny that you say that it is alive especially when we take it in its fresh and it's filled with water and living organisms and it's pliable.

[00:12:33] Plastic we can mold it we can change it and then as it goes into into the kiln it becomes like stone becomes so hard and I often think about things like trees or like stones and I and I think about them how they.

[00:12:50] Are there and they witness the passing of human beings like big trees that are there for hundreds of years or even longer than that and they see generations of people going by them or even stones like we don't know.

[00:13:04] What the vitality is within a stone we really have no idea and that's what we're doing with clay right we're putting it into the kiln and it minimorphizes into this other.

[00:13:15] Object that has our fingerprints and our actions put upon it and it's that will also outlive all of us at least in the short form.

[00:13:26] Totally I was in Turkey recently and walking through many of the Roman ruins and Greek ruins and so on and of course realizing.

[00:13:36] I've done a little bit of research on the history of the peoples and many of these ceramic pieces there that are available are thousands of years old right I mean it's really interesting and.

[00:13:48] So I think that there's a link back like I had a bust I made sitting on my deck this week and we had a big wind storm come through and they.

[00:13:58] And it got knocked off the deck and smashed on the floor and well that's okay can make another one but.

[00:14:04] I thought about it really in the context of what we're talking about that they that the pieces that will end up back in the soil because I can't put this one back together again.

[00:14:14] We'll kind of eventually end up back in clay and somebody thousands of years from now might be regenerating those pieces again.

[00:14:24] That's right there's so many might pick up a little shard with you know a little bit of texture on it and wonder where that comes from.

[00:14:31] Yeah, yeah absolutely hey you know another idea that you had was that it's important for you to to experiment in a way I guess that's not the word you use but.

[00:14:42] But you were saying while I try this out and then what comes out of the kiln can be a surprise sometimes pleasant sometimes not and and I wonder if you have any thoughts about.

[00:14:53] And emerging artists because I think I used to when I was starting off and and I think many others do think that we should have complete control over what we're doing right and that it should come out of the kiln just like I thought it should every time I do it because I've tested lots and kept very good notes on my tests and everything.

[00:15:15] What do you think about every got any thoughts for some more I'll call them junior folks.

[00:15:20] Well I think that that it makes me kind of smile because I teach a lot of students every year I teach at a city college I've been there for over 20 years.

[00:15:29] I've seen a lot of students come through my classroom through my studio and one of the questions that I all I often get asked is how do I make this smooth how do I make this smooth and I always answers is you know.

[00:15:44] If you if you don't make it smooth you're you're going to give the opportunity for the glazes or the slips or the stains to actually have something to attach to and get some really interesting marks and sort of smooth is overrated.

[00:15:59] So that's one of the catchphrases all say, smooth is overrated because I think when we begin we have this idea of perfection and what as the longer that you're in the field you realize what what we kind of yearn for is the hand made cup you know like the hand made cup with the imperfections that you can't buy a hundred piece set that looks all the same.

[00:16:25] You want something that has that feel of the human hands so.

[00:16:31] Yeah, I encourage folks to open up to seeing the imperfections and we go to the museum there's a lovely museum near my campus at the Stanford University has a wonderful small museum the can tour and they have a collection of beautiful ceramics from all around the world.

[00:16:52] And I just delight in bringing my students there because we look into some of the the pots and they'll be like a little crumb of something that got stuck in the glaze or you'll see where there might be a tiny crack on the edge and I said, look those are sitting in museums.

[00:17:07] There are some of them are from 500 years ago, 700 years ago and look at that there's the imperfection and you see those imperfections come out of the kiln.

[00:17:19] You know I call them like a beauty spot or something when you get like a little sometimes you know the clay little spit out a little piece of iron or something and they say, well it's ruined it's not it's just like that's something that came out of the clay that you didn't intend.

[00:17:33] And for me that's something to celebrate.

[00:17:37] Yeah, that's that relationship back and forth.

[00:17:40] Now you are doing sculptures these days mostly of the human form right and can you talk a little bit about how you approach this notion of the form versus the surface because it you know we can talk about color and surface design and we will for sure.

[00:18:02] But also it's it does relate to the form and I'd like you to think tell us how you think about that.

[00:18:09] The relationship of form to surface.

[00:18:12] These are great questions Bob.

[00:18:16] I'm thinking about the I often another thing I often tell my students is that ceramics is one of the greatest art forms because we really have both form and surface you know painters they have the surface.

[00:18:30] A lot of bronze sculptors sure they have a patina but we is ceramics like we really have form and surface to the max you know we can really dig deep into either one of those areas.

[00:18:45] When I work on forms, I like to keep some what I call wild areas so areas that are rough areas that are like torn pieces of clay.

[00:18:56] I kind of just let the clay be the clay and sort of look for those beautiful.

[00:19:03] The beautiful manifestations of sort of tearing or drooping or you know things that I don't have control over.

[00:19:13] And those areas really accept the glazes and the colors so nicely.

[00:19:20] And there's also a sort of a preciousness when I find when I sculpt something if I work really hard on it and you know make it look just so I become almost too precious with it and I don't allow myself the freedom.

[00:19:36] So when I begin to work on the surfaces of my sculptures, I usually start with the sculpture that I like the least in the groups like well work on a bunch of pieces all at once.

[00:19:49] Like I'll have a bunch of stuff going on at once.

[00:19:51] In all 10 to do all my sculpting and then once I get the sculpting done, all put away all the sculpture materials and pull out all the glazes and stains etc.

[00:20:06] And then I'll always pick my least favorite sculpture to start with so that I have so that I can be free with it.

[00:20:13] And those always turn out to be the best ones.

[00:20:16] Because you're free because I'm free.

[00:20:19] Like when you said it's precious that made me think that that's when we when we assign that preciousness to a piece, that's when we become tight.

[00:20:30] It's where to hide would use right that lines become tight my fingers are tight and I can't really.

[00:20:36] Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

[00:20:38] Yeah, that's really interesting to say that now. How do you approach color because you use some fantastic lovely colors.

[00:20:49] How do you how do you let's talk about just surface design for the moment like how do you think about that how do you approach it you know way back when you were talking about having the five buckets and in the days of when we were throwing I'm doing mostly sculpture stuff now myself is I was taught you dip it in and maybe.

[00:21:08] You dip it in twice depending on how thick it was and and and then you're done right so tell us a little bit about that.

[00:21:18] I color for me is it remains one of the great mysteries and I never seem to know as much as I need to know and on any given day I have a different approach I don't have a standard approach.

[00:21:32] So I'll like I say I look a lot of paintings I look at paintings and I look at color I call them color stories that seem to work together and I'll look at that and I'll think like wow interesting.

[00:21:50] You know like deep in corn for example I love looking at reach it rich and deep in corn's paintings and I'll look at them and I'll think like wow you know these he's got all these colors that overlay other colors and then they'll be like a bright slash of some other color.

[00:22:04] And I'll sort of let those things influence me I'll just fill my head with looking at paintings and then I'll sort of drag myself into the studio and.

[00:22:17] I first thing I like to do is I like to open up all of the containers so that I can see what I have and then I pull out a.

[00:22:26] I usually use a palette so you usually use like a bat from the wheel those plastic bats the black one and I'll use those for a palette and I'll treat it just like painters palette so I'll just put like little dots of color.

[00:22:40] We usually stay you know grab maybe four or five colors that I'm sort of feeling that day and start with those and mix them by the end of the day it's mayhem in there it looks like total chaos and.

[00:22:55] I often wash things off I'll try something if I don't like it I'll wash it up but of course these are all different stages of the clay right.

[00:23:04] When I usually before I put the form into the kiln for the first time the figure I'll put a white slip on a porcelain slip so I'll tend to use a sculpture body and then like a groggy sculpture body to build with.

[00:23:20] And oftentimes a buff color sometimes terracotta but oftentimes like a buff sculpture body and then I'll make some porcelain slip.

[00:23:30] And just slap porcelain slip on so that I have some subtle variation right in the beginning.

[00:23:36] And depending on what brushes I use those will leave marks onto the clay and that will go get put into the kiln.

[00:23:45] When it comes out of the besk I already have some you know pretty delicate variation going on and then I put on colors pretty thin I use a lot of water.

[00:23:57] And the when you put colors on the bisk is so exciting because you can just get these most beautiful marks but you have to pay attention.

[00:24:09] So I'll put a lot of put a lot of water into my brush and maybe choose typically a darker color to pick up those first marks.

[00:24:20] And saturate the brush and you know let the water drip down and sort of see what's going to happen and all of those marks will grab onto the color.

[00:24:30] And the most exciting way but you only get one go at that because that clay is porous so I find it that point I have to be really really attentive to what's happening.

[00:24:43] And I have to really look and see you know is that mark something that I like that and can I keep it.

[00:24:51] And then if I do want to keep that mark after be careful you know not to put water over it.

[00:24:58] How to stabilize it so that I can keep that beautiful drip or that beautiful you know slide of color.

[00:25:05] And kind of go from there so it's like it's literally like it's a new journey every time I feel like it is literally unfolding every time brand new.

[00:25:17] And I hear you are you're really alive when you're doing that you are and you you've got a very interesting way with your attention it seems like like you have this very wide open attention.

[00:25:33] In the beginning by taking attention to other people's work painters the oak trees as you're driving down the road all of those things and then it gradually gets more and more focused until you're in the studio with the brush in your hand.

[00:25:51] And then I'll send you have to be hyper focused that did I get that right.

[00:25:54] Yeah that's a really nice recap it's a splendid way of telling of recapping that story it's so true and I found different like I used to I still do a lot of multi firing so I'll put the piece in and sort of you know get it to stabilize and then bring it back out.

[00:26:15] And I found recently and I can't believe that it took me this long to figure it out but I've been using like a workable fixative.

[00:26:26] So I found that I can actually use a workable fixative like you would use with charcoal drawing and that will also fix those marks so it'll allow me to go a little bit deeper in.

[00:26:38] Before I have to put it in the count you know so yeah that attention what you're talking about that paying attention yeah especially when it comes to the surface you just you really have to zone in and you have to sort of allow that.

[00:26:54] Allow the marks to do their things and then decide is that something that I want to see and then it's sometimes all take a sponge and a wipe it away.

[00:27:05] And then because of the porosity of the disc you know it leaves its own kind of mark but there's what I always think like there's one go at it at that.

[00:27:15] That fresh bisque state and a lot of people describe that state is served like the dead state right the when the piece comes out of the the killing in the desk and we look at it really oh.

[00:27:26] But there that's also to me a very exciting state is that it's like a raw care this yeah absolutely and you can do multiple firings right so you can add take off sandblast you could do it every one of the really I suppose to the piece at that point in time.

[00:27:42] Let's let's just stick on this attention thing from in it because I think that's really interesting I was a psychologist in my in my work life and I've taken on this ceramics as I as I gave that up and start to do this full time.

[00:27:57] And so I'm interested in attention because I think that's a really eating well talk about these days we can get distracted easily.

[00:28:05] Is there's things are there things that you do in your studio that help you stay focused or things that help you avoid the distractions outside of you.

[00:28:15] I think similar to a lot of people I've talked to is listen to podcasts listen to podcasts listen to music.

[00:28:26] I listen to books on tape and honestly, I don't even hear what they're saying like all listen to the same book five times it's just having the somehow the noise of a human being like speaking in the room.

[00:28:38] I don't know what it is it's a mystery to me, but it kind of calms me down and centers me.

[00:28:45] Have you heard that before other artists saying that yeah for sure.

[00:28:50] Is it called as a psychologist do you does that have any can you make sense of that?

[00:28:56] Yeah for sure I think lots of times the creative space that we get into is when we get into a zone where we're not thinking about things as opposed to being very thoughtful and problem solving, which is another whole skill set we need.

[00:29:12] But you know sometimes if we're in the shower that's when an idea will come to us when we're just in that zone between being fully awake and being asleep.

[00:29:27] And so there's some good neuroscience behind that and I think in a way the music helps us get to that state it's kind of like the sound of the water running in the shower right that we are able to get into that space.

[00:29:43] Yeah that's good so that's a really good tip for people not now tell us a bit more about your color because you know you use some very deep and brilliant colors and I think in some ways they feel like a watercolor that you're using.

[00:30:01] Are these glazes under glazes stains with a fixative or with a frit in it like what's what do you do?

[00:30:10] I really love staying in straight stains so.

[00:30:16] I have lots of stains in little jars and I love those I definitely use a vehicle for those because some of them will come off some of them will stick on and some of them you'll fire them up and they'll just come right off so they're all different little different animals that you kind of have to get to know.

[00:30:36] I use a medium that I get at the ceramic supply it's called kaleidoscopic stain base and I have no idea what's in it if I don't have any of that I'll usually use a little bit of culminate you know just take a if I'm somewhere and I don't have my same base.

[00:30:55] I'll just take some water and put a little bit of culminate in there it's like a little tablespoon.

[00:31:01] I don't want to put too much in there because I don't want to turn it into a glaze glaze but that will usually fix a stain it's just water with a little bit of culminate in it.

[00:31:11] I like the dry stains. I love the underglaces the commercial underglases because they're so reliable now you can you practically can get any color that you dream of and I mix them so I'll mix my underglases with my stains or underglases with underglases using that sort of palette I'll have a palette on mixed colors I love doing that.

[00:31:37] I had a print making professor when I was in college who it's some sort of stuck inside my brain and she said never use black out of the can never use black out of the canvas like oh okay never use black out of the can so I'd serve do that also with my underglases if I have black I'll mix a blue into it or mix some orange into it make a warm black make a cool black.

[00:32:03] I love mixing the colors together and see what I'll get sometimes like I mentioned before I'll open up the kiln and it will be not something that I totally didn't expect and sometimes bad sometimes good.

[00:32:18] I also use the glaze pencils which I love but I'll typically start with underglases and stains and do the first layer very thin layers I like thin layers of color then I like to build those layers up once I have a pretty good.

[00:32:40] My colors kind of lead in there then I'll go in with glaze pencils and glaze those crayons those glaze crayons which I love I've got those.

[00:32:53] My last move is the glaze and I like a little bit of glaze not too much glaze I don't like the shine of the glaze too much but I do like the contrast a little bit of contrast with the shiny in the mat but I try and not put on glazes until the very very end because I found that that's what.

[00:33:15] I'm going to use this one and then the glaze will usually once you put a glaze on it's really hard to get it off you've got to have a sandblaster so that's kind of my last move.

[00:33:24] How do you select where the glaze go so is that where you want the eye to go because I or like what what your thoughts are all about.

[00:33:32] You know I've gone I've had such a journey with that says I'm not I've always sort of resisted you know making something look like it should like you know that the.

[00:33:43] The girl wearing a dress and the dress should look like this and the hair should be this color I've always really resisted that but there are parts of the.

[00:33:53] The figure that I do like to like the face I like the eyes to be you know the color in the eyes or whatever color in the lips but I like to keep kind of an open mind about.

[00:34:05] About coloring the the figures like I don't like to I don't like it to be too predictable I guess.

[00:34:12] Same with the glaze that with adding that shine you don't want it to be predictable either and you might splash it on given that live.

[00:34:21] An energetic process that you use it is what comes to mind if in fact it comes to mind it's it's some sort of unconscious process it sounds like you when you're doing your apply.

[00:34:33] I would say so I would say so I used to call it intuitive and now I now I call it improvisational.

[00:34:39] It's like a like improvisational music.

[00:34:44] You're reacting to something that you see so it's not all together intuitive because there is.

[00:34:52] There definitely is an analytic part of it like you think they all look and I'll think like well it'd be nice to have some shine but I don't want too much shine and also there's so many types of glazes as you know.

[00:35:04] Bob there's you know satin glazes and shiny glazes and color glazes transparent glazes and matte glazes so I tend to reach for transparent glazes and also sort of soft.

[00:35:22] What do you call them those.

[00:35:26] Satin glazes like earth soft glazes.

[00:35:30] So here you are in your stage of your career and you're talking about being free and easy and and you're like a jazz player you're like miles Davis with your with your precious.

[00:35:44] And now if I take you take us back to somebody who might be listening who's earlier on in their career.

[00:35:50] How do you how would you advise them about learning that technical pieces because you've got a lot of technical skills you said I've got to learn this and there's some analytical pieces to this.

[00:36:01] What's the best way for people to learn that technical piece so that you can be free when you're.

[00:36:09] I think for first for for someone who's just starting out.

[00:36:14] I think that you know we're all going to come from different places and there's going to be a lot of people who have an idea of what they want you know and that's almost easier in a way because you can say.

[00:36:27] You know if I want something that's very life like in realistic and I want it to look like this in some ways that's almost easier.

[00:36:35] Because then you can you can find people who you can study how do you do this and use you know something that's worked like a recipe almost.

[00:36:48] I think with as artists we're kind of trying to find ourselves like we're trying to find our way into ourselves and really find out what makes us take and what gives us joy.

[00:36:58] And for me, you know that sort of sense of freedom and discovery is really what brings me joy.

[00:37:06] So it I think it really depends on the personality of the young artist.

[00:37:12] But as far as understanding the material I think that's key is understanding what clay can do and what it can't do or what you know needs time to set up or ways to build up a surface.

[00:37:28] It's it's really time and practice and putting in the time and I think for people just starting out is like you know make a lot of things and do a lot of testing and don't get too precious about things because.

[00:37:44] If you work for a hundred hours on a beautiful sculpture and it comes out of the kiln and inevitably it's going to have a crack it's going to break your heart.

[00:37:54] Putting the kiln you might put on the wrong glaze you'll probably put on the wrong glaze, they'll break your heart again and you know you spent a hundred hours on it wouldn't it be better to have ten pieces that you spent ten hours on each and maybe one of them is going to come out great you know.

[00:38:11] So I think that really putting in the time and doing more you know doing more than just like everything is not it does not need to be a masterpiece.

[00:38:23] We don't know pickot we don't know the we don't know who Picasso is because he made one painting we know because he made millions of paintings right.

[00:38:31] So I think that that just like doing sheer quantity is really helpful for a very young person it's just you'll have testing make a bunch of small bowls you know make a sculpture of a small head and take a press mold off it and you know press the press that head make 25 test little test press molds and you know glaze those up.

[00:38:56] I think quantity is a good is a good tip.

[00:39:00] Yeah that's a great idea. I'm resonating on your idea that really play an art is is a journey into ourselves right that you were talking about how you find yourself and you find what's important to you and it lots of ways art really.

[00:39:18] What's as us to do that we can sort of get by in life doing other kind of work but when we get into art and and maybe paint I'm not a painter so I don't know that might be the same thing but but but really it is still about finding yourself isn't it.

[00:39:33] I think it is and because it's we I feel like I don't even know what I'm doing until I look backwards there's a oh interesting.

[00:39:42] I think you sort of reveal yourself to yourself yes yes that's a lovely way to say that yeah absolutely.

[00:39:51] Hey you know I really appreciate you spending this time with us today it's been fantastic talking with you and and I've enjoyed many of your ideas I what is there any we talk a little bit about ideas you might have for emerging artists or maybe old artists who are trying something new.

[00:40:09] Certainly thing that we've missed is a nugget of advice that you have for people around what they that would help them move in their practice.

[00:40:21] I don't know if it's advice that will fit everyone but for me I'm really open to learning and I think this if we keep ourselves open to learning.

[00:40:33] Not and especially as clay artists I think sometimes we put ourselves in a little box like we're only clay artists and so we only look at clay.

[00:40:41] I think of you open yourself up to looking at other types of media and even expressing yourself through other types of media.

[00:40:50] You know we talked a lot about creating surface on sculptures but what better way to practice mark making than on paper or on sand at the beach or you know like different marks are going to.

[00:41:05] Different tools are going to make different marks and sort of keeping ourselves open to experimentation.

[00:41:11] I started doing a lot of collage lately the last couple years is cutting paper and putting marks on paper and cutting that and sort of like allowing myself that freedom to experiment.

[00:41:22] I think that the sort of like the older that we get we become less playful and it's I think it's really important to keep that sense of play and experimentation and like everything like I mentioned before everything doesn't have to be a masterpiece and might end up in the circular file at the end of the day but sort of keeping ourselves open to.

[00:41:45] That sense of playfulness is I think really important for artists to do.

[00:41:51] Yeah like you've talked about joy like it's really important to connect with your joy what is it about that piece or part of that piece that really brings you joy.

[00:42:01] How can I practice and practice lots make lots of things right and to work outside the box don't just stay limited to a certain kind of clay or a certain temperature or a.

[00:42:15] Certain mark making or you know whatever it's about playing and experimenting and having fun and connecting with yourself.

[00:42:25] Yeah I like your encapsulation it sounds like fun.

[00:42:29] Absolutely, I'm up to your class I'm coming down to San Jose actually that's great.

[00:42:34] Hey thanks so much for spending some time with me and our audience here today I really appreciate it.

[00:42:39] Oh it has been such a pleasure and so much fun talking to you thank you for inviting me Bob.

[00:42:44] I am also looking. Thank you. We'll talk again thank you.

[00:42:47] All right great.