Naomi Clement: A Canadian potter, a teacher and a mentor for artists to earn a living at art.

[00:00:00] I think I've sort of been on a mission. Of in the last few years is debunking the myth of the starving depressed artist,

[00:00:07] because we all make better work when we're fed well and I don't, you know, I don't think there's any reason why an artist shouldn't make a good living. Hi, I'm Bob Acton and I'm pleased to share my conversation with Canadian potter and teacher Naomi Clement.

[00:00:26] She received her MFA from Louisiana State University and her BFA from Nova Scotia College of Art and Design University. She explores ideas of home and belonging through the powerful lens of functional ceramics,

[00:00:42] those we touch in use, and we talked about the importance of family. We also talked about making beautiful shapes, how she balances form and color, and some of the challenges she's experienced in overcome in her ceramics journey.

[00:00:58] I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with a great problem, solver and I only call that. Check out our work at Colour and Ceramics.com and let's get over to the other side and enjoy this conversation.

[00:01:18] Welcome to Colour and Ceramics, the potcast for Ceramic Artists who want valuable ideas about using color from leading artists and world class experts. Here's your host, Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and help potters, sculptors, and artists

[00:01:36] use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color, techniques, and the impact of color on people and art itself. I owe me thanks very much for joining us today on the Colour and Ceramics potcast. I really appreciate you being here.

[00:01:51] No, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, I really love your use of color and particularly how the dark clay really flows through the slips and the glaze and the underglays that you use and to give it

[00:02:06] really such a rich design and of course I really like the texture as well. I must say I really enjoy also your desire to explore the idea of family and food and home and belonging like

[00:02:21] that really rings true for me. So I'm really looking forward to having a conversation about lots of those ideas. Yeah, it's funny. I think a lot of folks don't, you know, they look at my pots

[00:02:34] and they see the visual aspects of them and that, you know, because you're saying the color and the design and the texture and respond to that, which is great. I obviously love that, but

[00:02:43] there is a lot of meaning and intent and thought behind the work too. So it's always nice to get an opportunity to chat about that a bit. Yeah, absolutely. You know,

[00:02:54] I'm assuming that you have taken years of work to get to where you are today. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your journey to where you are today as an artist.

[00:03:09] Yeah, how long do you have? It's certainly been an an an an an an an an an an an an I you know when I'd given Artistake I always show images of my home growing up because I was

[00:03:21] really lucky again that I grew up in a in a home with a lot of art and my parents had weren't artists that well my mom's a weaver. But they had a lot of friends who were artists and so they are

[00:03:34] walls were super colorful. We had a lot of art around us growing up in pottery as well and and so I just sort of grew up in a really rich environment visually so that I feel like that.

[00:03:43] Certainly influenced influenced me and then I went but I never saw myself as artistic, you know because I don't drop particularly well even after years in art school sort of

[00:03:55] trying to learn to draw and that's not my natural space. And so I never thought of myself as an artist because in you know when I was younger like the artist in the class was the person who could

[00:04:05] you know draw really well. The ended up going to an art high school in London on a Ontario called HBBel secondary school which sort of had a really well known art program and kind of

[00:04:17] took the went into the art programming grade 11 on a whim essentially like it was like that was the time you would enter it I was enjoyed art classes and they had a very sort of classic foundation

[00:04:30] program where you you don't go through to the design 3d to design you know and get introduced to all the different media printmaking drawing paintings and ceramics. And you know it clay was one of the

[00:04:43] first things I think I'd ever done in my life that I had a bit of an natural ability for and they think also because I'd never actually been a very strong student in school and so

[00:04:54] I but I knew how to work and clay rewards people who know how to work and so you know only yeah a fellow classmates who you know were used to being the good good artists because they could draw

[00:05:06] all of a sudden didn't have that advantage anymore and I had the advantage and that I I knew how to work and yeah just sort of really enjoyed clay in that whole community around the art program

[00:05:21] then I went on to get my undergrad in ceramics my BFA from the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design in Halifax which I think is now called Nascad University and then yeah and pursued clay there

[00:05:35] it has a really rich ceramics history and program there under Walter Ostrem who's now retired and then I you know apprentice for a couple of potters but got a little disillusioned after graduation

[00:05:49] there weren't as many options in Canada then as there are now for for young emerging folks in terms of residencies in the light and and I felt like I didn't know how to go about making a living

[00:06:02] and so I took quite a high aid it's from clay about 10 or 11 years and pursued some other things worked in wine sales, working restaurants, worked in marketing and then went you know so a long story but ended up deciding to go back and get my MFA in 2013

[00:06:24] and I sort of gotten back into clay a little earlier and had an opportunity to work on a family friends farm and exchange for room and board and studio access she was a potter as well and

[00:06:36] sort of all of this work that I think was like pent up inside of me for the past 10 years it sort of came out and I was like no this is this is what I'm supposed to be doing and so

[00:06:46] dove back in sort of you know feet first into clay and and I guess that was in 2012 2013 something like that and kind of you know haven't I haven't looked back since then yeah it's been

[00:07:00] done all sorts of different things went went got my MFA from Louisiana State University there's a three year program and graduated in 2017 and then you know did some different residences travel around the US and then eventually settled back home in near home in

[00:07:19] Stratford on Tario in January of 2020 just in time for a pandemic yeah that's cool I've followed your history a little bit on you know the net and Instagram and so on and see that

[00:07:37] you've been doing some really cool stuff over the last little while we sort of touched on this a little bit at the beginning around what might inspire you and I'm I'm really interested in what

[00:07:50] inspires people to do what they do right some of it's making living as you talked about but for artists it's more than just making a living so can you talk a little bit about

[00:08:03] what inspires you today or even how that's transitioned over time yeah that's a great question I think you know I'm I do you focus a lot on the making a living part of it because I'm a you know

[00:08:18] a single self-employed person and and you know that's just the reality of it is that I need to make a living doing it and you know in terms of what inspired me

[00:08:36] in the first place I think it was just a joy of like connecting and an interest in visual language and sort of expressing myself through through material and also you know I think there's

[00:08:50] something about clay that I love and that it's it's useful and I enjoy being useful and making things that are part of people's daily lives and I guess you know thinking back

[00:09:03] to having grown up in a home where I was surrounded by beautiful objects you know which is not everyone's case growing up and we did have handmade pottery that we used and just sort of

[00:09:15] how much more rich it makes life like daily life when you sort of have a beautiful environment and um beautiful objects to use and objects that have been thoughtfully made and then have a story

[00:09:27] you know that um and and so I think that's a big impetus for me is just sort of connecting with people and uh you know connecting with folks all around the world through whether it be through the objects

[00:09:42] that I make through the pots I make um and sort of becoming part of other people's daily life and story through objects of use or through teaching and connecting with with students all around the

[00:09:55] world and um you know helping helping other artists you know now that sort of evolved into wanting to help other artists find their boy find their voice and also um you know find ways for help them

[00:10:08] pursue their creative career and dreams with confidence and and also a thing I've sort of been on a mission of in the last few years is uh debunking the myth of the starving depressed artist because

[00:10:22] we all make better work when we're fed well and I don't you know I don't think there's any reason why an artist shouldn't make a good living absolutely cool so yes your work is about the functional

[00:10:37] work and and pots we can use and and but there's another component for you it sounds like and that's connecting with people and that relates to family stuff for you and and and your connection to new

[00:10:51] families around the world I guess in terms of people who are making their work can you talk a little bit about the family connection I think that's real interesting yeah I mean I grew up and you know

[00:11:04] I'm one of four kids and the third of four um and family dinner was was really important like we always had family dinner every night at 6 p.m. you know six people sort of no exceptions in it

[00:11:18] it always you know recounting it now and it always it sounds like this kind of rigid thing and there were definitely times when it was but it was also a really beautiful kind of way to connect

[00:11:30] and and sort of bear witness to each other's lives in this sort of day and day out way and I like that pots end up being part of that conversation too you know I think in terms of the

[00:11:44] the family thing too it's like I've always been kind of a lonely I was always a lonely kid and I think if have spent you know not not to be too depressing but many years as a lonely person

[00:11:58] and there's something beautiful about ceramics and that it does have this gorgeous sense of community and um and and vessels have are about community as well and sharing sharing meals together and

[00:12:13] and sort of allow you to connect both with yourself and others I think in ways that can be really potent and powerful and and yeah I think it it was a lot about sort of trying to find my own identity

[00:12:29] and voice both as a person and as an artist and you know end in my family and that kind of journey very cool I know that from for me often when I think about ceramics I think about you know the

[00:12:44] visual component right that we look at the piece but for me it's about also touching and holding the piece and and I you know your work here we are virtually talking and I don't have a piece in front of

[00:12:58] me but it really gives me the impression that I want to touch it and hold it is that important for you or how does that work for you? Yeah I mean I think it's it's interesting and um in this day and age

[00:13:13] where so much work is called and quote consumed just by an image you know like whether it's on Instagram or on my website or things like that it sort of this 3D object is consumed in a two

[00:13:27] dimensional way and um and that's just you know the reality of our day and age but my hope is always that the pots will um that I'll under promise and over deliver in terms of photographs like

[00:13:43] that you know I want them to be nice and good representation of photographs of the work but that I always want the pots to to be to delight and surprise in new ways in person and

[00:13:55] and there is you know the the clay body that I use has this when it's the bare clay itself fired to sort of like a hot cone five um has this really sort of smooth

[00:14:09] and I do spend a lot of time sanding and smoothing but um kind of polish stone feel to it that I really like that that interplay between the glossy ceramic surface and this sort of like polish stone

[00:14:22] um surface as well and and that that interplay both visually and and tactilely as well. Very cool. Well let's talk a little bit about color and and form and so on and I I guess there's always this interplay between the form and the surface design or the color

[00:14:44] how do you think about that and work with that balance between the two? Yeah I think it's kind of an ongoing dance um you know as I said I grew up in a home that

[00:14:59] was like really colorful when my parents were collecting art it was the 70s and so it was like a lot of really bright primary colors and you know walls I often say you know if I ever

[00:15:10] wanted to truly disappoint my parents I'd live in a beige home and then would be like how did we fail or where did we go wrong? So yeah for me like home and color are really kind of interconnected

[00:15:24] and and so like belonging and color as well and so I think it's it's more just about having a color palette that that allows me to explore that in different ways and that's what I really

[00:15:40] liked. A lot of things really started coming together when I found the current clay body that I that I use because it's I wanted the clay itself to have a voice in the conversation like

[00:15:52] a visual color and I tried a lot of different things over the years but what I like about the clay body that I use now it's this sort of it's this really rich chocolate brown stoneware that

[00:16:09] it it responds well to both warm and cool colors equally well like a lot of the mid range darker clay is our kind of more orangey that sort of don't do as well with some of the colors and so

[00:16:25] this this chocolate brown has this just really nice richness to it that provides sort of I think of it as I can you know as a ground color like you know painters will often put down a ground

[00:16:37] color you know on the whole canvas that they then lay all their color on top of so it the colors that I use are fairly bright primary colors they're all like the the color aspect

[00:16:48] of my work is largely under glazes, amicova all that under glazes and if I were to use those on a white clay it would it's just a completely different thing it's almost like really

[00:17:01] carousel very like the circus came to town kind of thing but that chocolate brown kind of you know interacts and responds with the colors and and deep in some and richness them and

[00:17:15] and sort of yeah has a nice voice in the conversation and so I think it's largely about that sort of that interplay and dynamic. Yeah I'm sure somebody will ask what kind of clay is that so yeah share with that is. Yeah for sure it's it's standard 266 stoneware

[00:17:38] so it's it's out of the u.s it's kind of a it's difficult to get for me here in Canada because there's no suppliers in Canada luckily I live close enough to the border that I can you know when I go down

[00:17:53] I can I can pick them up but it's kind of it's a high maintenance clay a lot of the darker mid range of glazes can be a little high maintenance just in terms of not not for building

[00:18:07] it's great you know it's nice and plastic it's it's a great great clay for for construction but it can be high maintenance in terms of firing and glazing so it's not one that I recommend for

[00:18:21] for folks who don't have access to their own kiln or control of their own fireings. Yep they have to put it in the kiln in a slow fire or a slow cooled down or

[00:18:35] yeah a bit of bit of both it's quite a long disc and I you know if people are are using dark clays and having issues I do share those my firing schedules on my website

[00:18:48] name with mc.com you can I think that's under the process page you can download them yeah it's sort of like burnout during certain stages where a lot of the so it's a hotter

[00:18:58] disc to burn out some of that organic material in the disc stage so it's not burning out in the glaze and then like sort of causing pinhole bubbling issues and it is along a slow

[00:19:11] cool on the glaze as well and it's also I think they've changed at the clay used to be rated cone 4 to 6 but if you actually fire it to a true cone 6 it will start to bloat so I fire it

[00:19:24] to it's basically like a cone 5 and a half essentially a hot cone 5 and it also it can't be refired like if I have a glaze a piece that's been glazed fired and then there's some kind of

[00:19:40] safe law or something that I want to you know touch up with some glaze if I try and refiere it it bloats the clay just doesn't like to be refired so again as I said it's it's a bit finicky

[00:19:52] it's high maintenance but it's it's sure as the beautiful luscious clay when it all said and done well sometimes that's what happens when something's luscious it's also finicky right and

[00:20:04] then you just gotta go with that yeah very cool now now so you've got this rich brown reddish clay how do you select your color palette that you use with the under glazes?

[00:20:19] yeah I sort of have two color palettes that I use like a warmer color palette reds orange yellows and then a darker like cooler color palette blues and greens um some of it again is just through

[00:20:34] plain and investigating and developing a color palette language that I enjoy some of it is also dictated a bit by the clay like there are certain under glazes um that the clay just doesn't respond

[00:20:48] because it's such a dark clay like some of the the more pastelly like I've tried to work with like lighter green or certain yellows pastelly yellows they just don't they get either completely

[00:21:04] like washed out by the dark clay or they respond poorly to it in terms of like bubbling and and the like so it's it's partly dictated by by the clay and just you know colors that

[00:21:17] that I really respond to a lot of primary colors for sure um you know and yeah colors that just sort of resonate with me. so it's kind of a combination of you knowing technically what really works well with the clay experimenting and finding out what doesn't work and

[00:21:42] and what kind of colors just maybe fade away and also what really is important to you what you love and like right because that's pretty critical isn't it? yeah yeah definitely you know

[00:21:55] one of the things we've talked about with other guests on the show has been the notion that it's really important to do things that you love not necessarily only things that people will buy

[00:22:08] and that that's an interesting balance to take because if you're like you and you want to make a living have it people need to purchase your work and at the same time you need to do

[00:22:19] things that you love does that how does that fit for you? yeah I think it's a constant dance and you know certainly something I think about a lot and talk with other artists about and

[00:22:30] and my students as well it's like you know as soon as you make as soon as you sell something it changes your relationship to the object like as soon as it's you're making work to sell it

[00:22:42] it just changes some of your decisions and and it's not necessarily a good or bad thing it just sort of is is what it is. I certainly try not to try and make things that that I want to make

[00:22:58] but you know again it's it's a it's sort of a complicated dance like because I of where I live you know I sell when I sell my work I sell it largely online like through my online shop

[00:23:14] you know I love making really big things but those are a pain in the ass to ship like a platter is one it's just like really expensive and and just you know really precarious to ships

[00:23:24] not mean you know big and flat and so those tend to not be things that I make as much because you know they're they're a challenge to ship versus you know if I was someone who you know had

[00:23:41] a shop like my own shop perhaps like it would it would be different so yeah and and if I if I just listened to what people wanted all the time I would just make mugs 24 7 and

[00:23:56] I don't I love using mugs I buy other potters mugs I totally get why people love mugs but I don't want to be a mug making machine so yeah it's sort of that it's a it's a constant dance and

[00:24:09] you know and sometimes sometimes you have to step back and reassess or change tack and and sometimes you know you just have the realities of deadlines and things that you have to

[00:24:24] kind of make work for yeah for sure hey what I mean we've talked a little bit about some challenges you've had and like with choosing this type of clay you use and so on but can you talk

[00:24:36] about a challenge that you experienced as an artist and how you overcame that I mean I think the biggest challenge oh I'm gonna think of a couple um just trying to decide which tack to take

[00:24:56] um one was just like owning that I am an artist that took a really long time. I think I resisted being an artist for a very long time. I'm a bit of a inspirational quote

[00:25:10] mag pie I collect them and one of my favorites is the only thing harder than being an artist is not being an artist and I said I tried for a very long time not to be an artist and then just sort of

[00:25:25] realizing like you know I'm an intelligent capable woman you know I could I could go and be a doctor or a lawyer if I wanted to but that doesn't interest me so surely I'm intelligent enough to figure

[00:25:38] out how to make this work you know in terms of make living at it too so I think that's been the other challenge for me is like figuring out how to how to make a living at it and you know

[00:25:51] when I went to grad school. Actually part of my thinking was oh well I'll have a graduate degree and you know I can teach at the post secondary level. I knew that those jobs were very difficult

[00:26:05] to come by but just you know it was certainly sort of a thought in the back of my mind and I tried to get those you know one of those jobs for a while and um I was also older when I went to graduate

[00:26:17] school and just didn't want to move I'd moved around for a long time I didn't want to keep moving and you know following jobs and instead just decided to kind of plant a flag in the sand and

[00:26:30] be in one spot and try and make that work and um is it the timing ended up being both really fortunate and really difficult in terms of you know when I moved got my place in um

[00:26:47] late 2019 to summer 2019 and moved in in January of 2020 um it was great timing and that I had a home and I had sort of decided after many years of moving it around that I was going to pick one spot

[00:27:01] to be in and try and make it work from there and you know I had my whole year kind of lined up teaching workshops you know selling at Enseco like all all of these different things and you know

[00:27:14] that takes a long time to to set that all up and felt like okay I can make a go of this maybe get a part-time job somewhere else to help subsidize things rent and remove my house all all

[00:27:24] of those things um to try and cobble it together and then um you know COVID happened and everything was just canceled overnight you know that I spent so long working for uh and it was yeah really

[00:27:40] and I had a mortgage to pay I was really scary um and terrifying and it was sort of like well either I go get a job at the grocery store or I figured this out and you know I was very

[00:27:54] fortunate to be in Canada where we had a lot of support from the government you know like we had the serve that Canadian emergency response benefit or something like that which was for self-employed

[00:28:06] they and they opened that up to self-employed people you know because I because I was self-employed I didn't have any you know employment insurance or any unemployment insurance that kind of thing

[00:28:16] and so I was able to get that and I was able to actually pause my mortgage payments for six months you know they they just everything they were very responsive which I very grateful for and then I

[00:28:32] had sort of seen other people doing virtual workshops and I was like well I don't have the infrastructure to do that like I don't have an online sales platform I didn't have an online

[00:28:42] sales platform at that point in time because I was mostly selling my work in person at workshops um so not only was the workshop income gone but the direct sales income was gone as well and I didn't

[00:28:54] have an online platform for that yet and I ended up partnering with an organization that I'd been a resident artist at in California, Sonoma Ceramix they were like hey do you want to do some online

[00:29:04] workshops with us and I was like yeah great awesome and they handled all the the admin and the booking side of things and I did the teaching and those went really well you know luckily I had an

[00:29:18] audience already on Instagram that I was able to sort of help drive sales to that and so it was sort of you know proof of concept that this one this is a viable thing both financially and also

[00:29:33] you know I've got some ability added I enjoy doing it I had the teaching experience that I was able to translate to this new format you know certainly if five years ago you'd have told me that

[00:29:43] I would be teaching ceramics virtually I would have thought you were insane like how is that's going to translate to a virtual medium and and then I just sort of you know grew through things from there

[00:29:56] kind of opened up a whole new way of making a living and yeah it's been really rewarding and also reaching students you know all over the world so you're a great problem solver it sounds

[00:30:14] and it sounds like that that's really skill set that you brought to make your artistic career successful yeah yeah I guess so and it's funny because you know folks both will say oh wow you

[00:30:29] know you really pivoted really well and and works so hard and which I'm I'm certainly grateful for that feedback and and other people recognize that but I think at the time I was just like

[00:30:42] felt like I didn't have any other option like I just needed to figure it out and yeah and so and as I said luckily had the support of you know some government support in order to

[00:30:57] get my feet and and take the time to build the business and and sort of do it incrementally so yeah yeah that's great so this is a great segue into telling us a little bit about your school

[00:31:11] because I think that's a big part of what you're doing these days so can you tell us a little bit about your school yeah yeah so I teach all sorts of this is it sort of started with you know

[00:31:21] how to work shops you know like had to make a cut hand build a cut hand build bowls like my surface techniques layered surfaces all of that stuff it's sort of started there and I enjoyed

[00:31:35] that aspect of it they're generally taught live over zoom and then I I sell the recordings afterwards um but you know sort of something that I was seeing and and experiencing myself and like

[00:31:49] getting feedback from other students was just you know being a studio artist like everyone has this dream to like have a studio in your home um but it can be really lonely creatively like it's

[00:32:01] I spend a lot of time by myself in my studio and it's such a different thing from the community studio experience that many of us is how many of us get introduced to clay like taking a you know

[00:32:15] a clay class that a community studio or going to school for it where you're surrounded by other people in different energy and and you know it's also hard to to advance your work in a vacuum kind of

[00:32:28] and so um I started offering different you know uh different things from the just the instructional like pottery techniques workshops I started offering I run a longer intensive mentorship program called Finding Your Voice for it's like a small group cohort um eight to ten students generally

[00:32:50] in the winter um who are that's by application people like wanting to to dig into the why of their work I have another sort of mentorship like program called Finding Focus which is the strategies

[00:33:04] for artists to sort of dig into some of the questions behind their work and then about a year and a half ago I started a membership program so that's like a monthly sort of cost for people to

[00:33:20] be a member it's called makers spark and um they get you know access to all of my pottery techniques workshops like so the whole catalog of workshops we bring in guest artists just last week I had my

[00:33:35] friend Shalaya Marsh for a workshop on screen printing um with ceramics and and then there's a community aspect as well like we have conversation we have Q&A session every month prior to Facebook

[00:33:48] group for sort of community connection and yeah it's it's funny I was I was talking to a friend and it's like I basically built the teaching job that I wanted um in that yeah I get to connect

[00:34:04] with makers from like all over the world and talk about pots which is you know what and and art which is what I love doing and help other artists kind of find their way and and I also teach some

[00:34:15] a professional development course to called professional practices sort of you know helping I think of it as like a boot camp for artists in terms of like all the professional stuff I wish

[00:34:25] I'd known when I first started out like social media websites applying to shows you know all pricing work all all of that stuff and so yeah it's just it's been been really rewarding um to

[00:34:42] get to help and connect with students from all over and um as I said kind of build the teaching job that I wanted yeah absolutely it's like Naomi University in lots of ways and and and and

[00:34:56] I think one of the things that I hear that's been really important to you and that you sense in others is this notion of community of being able to connect with other people um on a personal level but

[00:35:09] also on an artistic level to just find out about techniques and ideas and struggles that we all have yeah yeah I think it as I said it you know and through my teaching prior to the pandemic

[00:35:23] you know at at also it's a different community studios and like when I come into teach workshops I saw a lot of people who were hungry for more like they wanted more than just the how to they wanted

[00:35:34] some stuff around the why and the ideas behind our work and and so that sort of what what I offer both in the longer mentorship program and also in the membership you know we do like creative book clubs

[00:35:49] we do critique sometimes in the membership and um you know show in towels all sorts of things to sort of dig a little deeper with that work awesome and we'll make sure to put up the links on our

[00:36:02] ostens and such for people to be able to find you and your and your school because I would be pretty pretty important yeah yeah everything sort of on my website neomeclement.com is sort of the hub

[00:36:17] hub for all of it but yeah that would be great so I want to leave you leave with one question and that is what kind of advice might you have for an emerging ceramic artist if you could give them one

[00:36:31] nugget as I call it what what that be yeah um it's hard to narrow it down to just one it's probably a really boring sound it sounds like a boring piece of advice but it's take care of your body

[00:36:51] because it's your most important tool and if we want to have like long and healthy careers you know many of us start in clay one we're younger and have bodies that sort of bounce back

[00:37:02] very quickly and you know I'm in you know I'm not old but Andy means but in my mid 40s and you know things you don't bounce back in the same way and and injuries and you know you know

[00:37:15] unfortunate ways of doing things and you know they start to add up and catch up with you and you know I want to have a long and healthy career and so like building in sort of maintaining my most important

[00:37:26] tool which is my body I think is essential if you want to have a long and fruitful career. Perfect great advice and I all may thank so much for joining us here today I really appreciate

[00:37:38] it taking the time with us. Oh yeah it's been my pleasure thanks so much for having me. Yeah it's always nice to talk about this kind of stuff. Great thank you. Thanks for listening to the color in ceramics podcast with Bob Acton and his guests.

[00:37:57] Please help others find the podcast by subscribing to this podcast wherever you find your podcasts such as iTunes, Spotify, Amazon, Music, YouTube or other podcastures and don't forget to give us a review. We'll see you next time.