Susan Halls: An Exceptional Potter, Sculptor and Teacher in the UK.

[00:00:00] For most of the last 30 years, I have raccoufired. That's been my primary source of colouring and finishing. Bob Acton Hi, I'm Bob Acton and I'm the host of the Colour and Ceramics Podcast. Welcome to the show. I'm excited about having you here today and I'm really keen to share my conversation with Susan Halls with you.

[00:00:23] Susan is a potter and sculptor in the United Kingdom who did some training here in Canada a number of years ago and then ended up in London where she established her practice and exhibited widely throughout the United Kingdom and Europe. She also became a visiting lecturer to many colleges and universities including the Royal College of Art,

[00:00:48] Central Saint Martins, Manchester Art School and the Cardiff Institute along with the Bath School of Art. Her work is represented in several public collections including the Sackler Foundation, Victoria and Albert Museum in London and Stoke-on-Trent Museum as well as York City Art Gallery.

[00:01:09] In 1998, she moved with her husband to the United States and set up her practice and studio in Connecticut. In 2018, she returned to her native UK and is currently the resident artist at the University of York and she lives in the East Riding of Yorkshire. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:38] Welcome to Color and Ceramics, the podcast for ceramic artists who want valuable ideas about using color from leading artists and world-class experts. Here's your host, Bob Acton, a sculptor and ceramic artist who's fascinated with color and how potters, sculptors and artists use color in their work. Tune in as he talks with his guests about color, techniques and the impact of color on people and art itself.

[00:02:06] Susan, thank you so much for joining the Color and Ceramics podcast. We're excited about having you here today. We love your work and I think I got oriented to your work when I saw your cats and that was a little while ago. But hey, so thanks very much for being here. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you, Bob. Yeah, you're most welcome.

[00:02:27] You know, I wonder if you could tell our audience, because this is an audio only podcast, people aren't going to get to see your work on the podcast. If you could tell people a little bit about your work, what is it that you do? And, and, and. Okay. Well, gosh, that's, that's a huge question. I'll try and be, I'll try, I'll try and be brief. I think when people ask me, you know, what do you do?

[00:02:58] I will sort of boil it down. So I might say I'm an artist or ceramic artist. Sometimes I say I'm a potter. Very often I say I work, I'm a sculptor, but I work with clay. I use pottery techniques and I make mostly animal sculpture images of animals, which are not highly representational, but very much a personal response to the subject.

[00:03:29] And I've always worked that way when I've made my animals, I mean, a few exceptions, probably commissions, but left to my own devices, I'm looking for a way to interpret the animal form or reinterpret the animal form in a, in a very personal way. And it changes all the time.

[00:03:52] You know, what I was interested in six months ago or a year ago will be different to how I'm feeling or the work I'm wanting to produce at this time. So I have a, I have a very small stable of subjects, which I are on a sort of carousel and I revisit them over periods of time. They don't get off.

[00:04:21] I get on and, and, you know, I have a very obsessive appetite for a particular kind of animal. And, and some get more working than others.

[00:04:35] Um, so for instance, pigs, dogs, uh, sheep, rabbits, very go, go back right to my student days, but cats, which lots of people will see on my Instagram, uh, are really new. I have not tackled the cat subject before other than a couple of odd pieces. So they're new to the carousel, but they're not getting off.

[00:05:06] So, so tell me what is it that brings these animals together? So there's, um, pigs and dogs and cats, as you've said, and sheep and so on. Um, and, um, from your perspective, what is it that links those together? Why do those fit on the carousel together? I, I think that, I think there's two reasons. One is these are domesticated animals. So I see them all the time.

[00:05:34] Or I can go and find them fairly easily. Whereas something like an elephant, you know, I've really got to make an effort to go find an elephant or a giraffe or something like that. I think it's because I, I, I, particularly where I'm living now, which is fairly rural, you know, and I just, these animals, I, I see them a lot. Um, I'm exposed to them quite a lot.

[00:06:00] And the other, the other element is that, and I know this is a fact, is that within each subject, there's a very broad way to interpret it. It's not a fixed thing. So dog, if you say dog to someone, everyone's going to have a slightly different image that pops up in their mind. But there is no specific thing about a dog. Really.

[00:06:30] I mean, obviously, four legs, maybe a tail, but it's a very much an image that is fluid and in flux and allows me to go in and almost do a little bit of sort of genetic engineering. And, and, and I like that about certain subjects. So dog has it, um, and bird has it.

[00:06:57] Um, I feel all the subjects I choose have it to more or less a degree, but you see what I'm saying is it's an elephant is, is much more specific in, in its appearance. There's generally one type of elephant, or I know there's a couple. I know in reality, there's a couple, but, but they really look very similar.

[00:07:23] Whereas dogs and I'm a lover of dogs have many, many looks to them. And I think, I think a lot of this is to do not so much with birds, although you could apply it to chickens, but there's like man's interference in, in the genetic, genetic crossbreed. Yes. So you get that with sheep, you get it with cats, you certainly get it with fowl, you know, domesticated birds.

[00:07:52] Dogs is just like the top of the heap for constant reinvention. Um, so there's a very strong element of that in the subjects that I am interested in. But having said that Bob, I'm actually getting incredibly interested in lions. Really? Which I have never sculpted, drawn, but never sculpted.

[00:08:19] But I keep seeing it in images of like medieval art, um, and armory and, um, uh, sort of regal, heraldic imagery. It keeps popping up and it just keeps just like tempting me. It's going to be a tough one. Yeah. This might be a whole new carousel that you might have two carousels working.

[00:08:44] The only odd one out on my carousel is only odd because it is an exotic animal, other monkeys. And they, they haven't really visited for a while, but they are deep in my history as a maker. Um, but they are an exotic animal. And again, they're an animal that is very loose in interpretation.

[00:09:11] So let's talk about your interpretation, because I think that's really interesting. So you've got these characters, dogs and so on that, that we all know, right? And you apply your interpretation. So tell us about this interpretation for you, this kind of visceral thing, I think. Uh, that's a nice way to put it. Yeah, it is very visceral. Um, it, Oh, well, Oh gosh.

[00:09:41] Oh Bob, it's so hard to, to like find a beginning. But one, one instance would be, um, going, well, drawing, which is fundamental to how I work. Um, so I will begin by sketching. That can often mean sketching from the live animal. And when I'm doing that, even though it might be a subject I've drawn many, many times, each revisit, I notice something a little bit different.

[00:10:11] And it's really about shapes. It's about the form of the animal. I'll notice something that I haven't paid attention to before, or I'm just more interested in that aspect of an animal. So as I'm sketching, I can already see a way of making what it is that I'm interested in about that animal. Um, so something will start to sort of simmer to the surface.

[00:10:41] It might just be, um, like the really skinny little legs and the way the feet are shaped, you know, this big body mass on top. Or it, it might be, um, just something to do with the sort of volume of the rib cage and the shoulders that's just suddenly really become much more evident to me. Um, or, or, or some nuance of the head.

[00:11:09] It'll, it'll be something there that I'm already engaging with and thinking, Oh yeah. And then I'm starting to make it in my mind. I could do it this way or that way. Um, and because I embrace so many different techniques, I'm, I'm sort of shuffling through in my mind, the best technique to allow me to interpret this, this new. New image that I'm coming up with.

[00:11:37] So, so all this is sort of scampering around in my mind. Um, hopefully. And, and, and it's really exciting. I think at its best is when I'm drawing and I'm already feeling my way into the making, but I wouldn't skip the sketching stage because that really is my sort of hunter gatherer. Um, process. Um, process.

[00:12:04] And, and that information is so important to me back in the studio so I can refer to it. But, um, I think when I'm drawing, I'm drawing in a way that is also thinking about the making. Mm. That's really interesting. That's interesting that you've got a, you sort of think as of your pencil or your pen or whatever it is you sketch with, um, as kind of like your, um, your hunting instrument, right?

[00:12:31] Some people, some people hunt with a gun, of course, some people hunt with a, with a camera in order to get some pictures and you hunt with a pencil. And, uh, that's very, yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's a much more humane way of, um, of bringing the animal home. Absolutely. And when I look at your work, I see, uh, in my impression anyway, a big focus on form.

[00:12:56] And like that seems to be very important in your work. Did I get that right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, so understanding just basic animal anatomy has been very important for me. Um, it's not something I always knew about. I had a good visual memory for animal form, but I didn't necessarily know, um, the engineering that was involved.

[00:13:25] So, um, about 20 years ago, I started to put much more time into studying this and, um, and drawing, uh, improving my drawing, um, so that I could understand this information, get it into my drawings. Um, because in doing that, it means that when I'm drawing from life, I can draw the animal from any angle.

[00:13:52] So perspective, I'm not afraid of, which I used to be because I didn't understand it. So I have a much sort of stronger ability now to draw what it is I'm looking at and understand it. And, and in doing so, I can draw more volumetrically because I also understand enough about animal anatomy.

[00:14:15] All of that is, um, hopefully, um, sitting in, in those studies as well. Um, it, there's been a long, slow process, but I think, you know, I've always been interested in animal form, but I was never able to draw it very well until I acquired more skill over a period of time.

[00:14:38] Um, so yeah, it's just, oh, animal form is just, just, I've always just been so excited about it. And even as a child, I didn't know that that's what I was responding to, but I, I remember the first time I was able to have a dog when I was in my mid twenties when I'd never had a dog before. And I was madly making dogs at this time.

[00:15:04] And I, I got this dog from the shelter, very young, not a puppy, but a young dog. I brought it home and I gave it some food. And I remember just looking at its feet thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to get to see these feet every day and draw them and feel them and understand them.

[00:15:22] And it, it was so exciting that I had four dogs feet that I was now very, um, privy to having this, um, animal in my life every day. And, and just being so excited about dogs feet. Cause I'm, I've never, I've never had dogs feet in my life before. You know, I would see them and draw them, but to actually own them as it were.

[00:15:52] Yeah. That's very cool. If they can sit beside you and you can fiddle or fondle with the feet and really get a sense of it and then transfer that, that tactile muscle sensation to your work that you're doing, isn't it? Yeah. To really, to really just be able to look and study at close quarters like that, really understand, um, yeah, in a tactile way.

[00:16:15] How did you, how did you learn the, the muscular structure, the anatomy of animals? What was your method that, well, what was your most successful method that you had? Well, I went back to school basically. So I was living in the States, I was in Connecticut and I just decided I want to be a, be a student again. And I knew the weaknesses in my drawing ability.

[00:16:44] I was always good at drawing, but I knew I had, um, some huge voids that I wanted to tackle. And that was basically, uh, understanding perspective. Which sounds like a small thing, but it's massive.

[00:17:02] Because it's basically being able to understand the three dimensional world and put that down on paper and, and dissect it and explode it and put it back together again. So I found a class at an art school called the Silvermine Guild Arts Centre or the Silvermine School of Art.

[00:17:26] And I, I, I took a couple of classes there with a brilliant teacher called Jack Kovach. I have to acknowledge him. He was so astoundingly good. And I'm talking about, this is not an art school for a degree or anything. It's what we'd call in the UK, um, evening class or adult education. Oh yeah.

[00:17:50] So a few hours every week I go and I took a very dry drawing class to understand perspective. And I went back to do figure drawing as well, which I hadn't really done since art school. And I worked at this for about three years. And because I had such a great teacher, because I wanted to learn, um, I just dedicated myself to it.

[00:18:15] And I would not only do all the work in class, but I would go away and I'd do extra work. Like bring it in. And Jack would look at it and criticize it. Absolutely. Absolutely. As if I were a student taking an MA or BA. Absolutely first class teaching.

[00:18:35] But because I was studying perspective and figure drawing at the same time, I used to challenge myself and go to the museums to draw animal skeletons, which I never would have done before. Because that's just, it's like trying to draw the inside of a cathedral or something.

[00:18:56] Um, but I just kept going and looking at animal skeletons, um, and trying to draw them or skulls. I had some skulls of my own. I would draw those in my studio. And, and actually realizing, it was like a light going on that animal skeletons, mammals, are, we're all the same.

[00:19:23] We're all really got the same bones. There's just, um, adaptations. And that was astounding. Um, and the same with the musculature. Once you understand, uh, how the human body is, is formed, is made up. Other animals are really not any different. You know, big bones mean big muscles.

[00:19:51] Um, you know, uh, thin bones, thin long bones are going to mean thin long muscles. And it, it, it all just sort of, um, um, gelled together. It was slow. It was painful, but it was, uh, a determined, um, path that I was on. And, and it really was down to Jack being so generous and helpful.

[00:20:19] It is really important to find a teacher who has those characteristics that you talked about that you really can connect to. But, but I guess in addition to that, I hear that you, um, were tenacious in your learning. You decided you were going to practice and work hard and going to museums and looking at different things and getting feedback. That was really the key component, uh, for you. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:47] Um, because, um, well, I've always like, always wanted to be the best student in the class. Even, even when I was at art school. Um, and actually I'll just raise a point here. Cause lots of people say, well, you did six years of art school and nobody ever taught you how to draw. Um, well, no, because I was always in ceramics. I was in studio, studio ceramics.

[00:21:13] Um, we had some, uh, what they call visual studies and drawing classes, but no one really, really taught you the nuts and bolts of how to draw. That was for, you know, fine art students. So I had to go and find it myself, but wanting to be the best student in the class. And particularly because I adored Jack and I wanted to please him. I wanted to be the best student.

[00:21:40] He would say things in class about when he, cause he was in the seventies, retired professor at this point. But he used to talk about what he'd done, the projects he'd given his students, um, at the university in Bridgeport, Connecticut. And he talked about some of the projects. And I think I'm going to go away and do that. So I, things that he just brought up lightly in class, I think, right, I'll go and do that as my homework. And I bring them in.

[00:22:10] And I think he loved, loved that and responded to that. And just, he could see how hungry I was. He knew I was a professional artist and, um, he just took me under his wing and just gave me as much as he could. It was not easy. It was not, I have to say it was not easy.

[00:22:35] And it wasn't natural for me to, to acquire these, these skills. Really understanding perspective is, is dry. It's a horrible, dry, agonizing, torturous process for someone like me.

[00:22:54] And, and it was very, very hard work, but it was only through doing and doing and doing extra that the penny, it was literally like a penny dropping very slowly. Very exciting. Now, who has inspired you? Um, on the clay side. So you talk about Jack with the drawing side, um, and the perspective side, of course, but what about on the clay side? Who has, um, inspired you?

[00:23:23] Well, Picasso is my hero. Picasso is my God. Um, and I absolutely love his ceramics, all of it. Um, um, in terms of ceramics as a, as a, as a, as a, you know, just as a pure subject. Um, Ruth Duckworth, I absolutely love.

[00:23:47] I tend to, I'm drawn to people who work very abstractedly or are vessel makers. Um, so Michael Cardew, I absolutely adore his work, but Ruth Duckworth is a big one for me. Um, um, so, so many, I'm not going to be able to name them all.

[00:24:08] Um, um, Gillian Lowndes is another British maker who's not with us anymore, unfortunately. She, she, she does some extraordinary, extraordinary work, really pushing the envelope. I love a lot of what Alison Britton has done, particularly her most recent work. I really like abstract form in ceramic.

[00:24:36] Um, because when I look at figurative, I'm going to sound really pompous now, but when I look at figurative work, I tend to be very critical. I, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, because it's my field, I go into it with a critical eye and I think, wow, you really made that body too short, you know? Oh, and it obviously wasn't intentional.

[00:25:00] And then I go in as a teacher and I start, I just start, um, doing a sort of tutorial with, with the pieces. Um, and, but your work is figurative yet abstract, right? So, um, what do you, what are you trying to achieve with that? Or, or, or how are you approaching that abstract nature of the, of the animal? Do you see it as abstract? Oh yeah.

[00:25:29] Yeah, for sure. Um, gosh. Yeah. That's fantastic. Um, I wish I could see it that way. I, I feel like I'm so far from where I want to be. Um, I, I really wish I could find a way to create abstract things.

[00:26:02] Um, I, I, I, I'm, and it's, you could, I'm, you know, pairing things down to, I hate the word essences, but let's use it. Um, for me isn't abstraction. Um, I really feel that there's another level that I want to try and clamber up to, which

[00:26:28] somehow loses the animal form a little more without it just being a stylized image. And that's. Oh, you're, you're folded, you're folded pieces, right? Those little pieces that you fold over. Yeah. I'm looking right now at a, at a statue you've made of multiples of these folded ones that, uh, rise up, right? Yes. Yeah.

[00:26:53] That really has, uh, the essence of some form, but I don't think that it would evoke that kind of criticism in people. Cause I know what you mean. You know, if the form isn't right, then people see it's not right. They might not be able to articulate why it's not right. And that catches their mind then. Um, but, but with your pieces here that have the essence of the animal yet it's not designed in that figurative way. I mean, it really does capture that.

[00:27:22] Actually, I, yeah, those, those pieces are, um, slightly outside of my sort of core studio work is something quite different that I'm trying to do. Um, using those, um, very simplified animal forms almost as like building units.

[00:27:43] Um, and I do want to, to go on and develop those into being almost more architectural. Um, yeah, the animals don't really have a personality to them. Um, cause I've taken away the eyes and the ears. So there's no, nothing to engage with in terms of expression.

[00:28:08] Um, so I see potential with those to go in a different direction. Um, they seem, yeah, like they seem in a way, this may seem crazy, but it's almost like they are then the bones of the sculpture, right? They, in fact, when I look at it and I've done a little bit of work looking at some macro images, I'm interested in really tiny things. Um, uh, bone structure.

[00:28:36] There's a, there's an element of that there. Yes. I, I can see exactly why you say that because I was looking at that image of the black one recently and thought, Oh, it's very, um, like spinal kind of feeling to it. Yeah. Boniness. Um, which, which I, I'm really enjoying that, but I've got to be very careful that I don't

[00:29:04] become too sort of alien sci-fi. Don't you feel it's the little egg? Yeah. Sometimes I look at it and I forget the name of that artist who is, um, is he Dutch or, um, I can't remember. He does this amazing, uh, really dark, organic, slightly sci-fi drawings.

[00:29:30] Um, and I think a lot of the alien films actually Geiger, I think it's Geiger. Um, uh, so I, I, I've just become aware. I think, Oh, that's just a little bit too sci-fi. It might be because it's sort of black and bony looking. So that's something. Tell us a little bit about your use of color. This podcast, of course, is called color and ceramics.

[00:29:57] And really it was in part designed to talk about surface design. And so, so we've been talking about form, but you do have color on your form. So you don't just have a raw clay, although you do that intentionally, I think in some way. So tell us a little bit about your use of color and how you think about that in, in the context of form and so on.

[00:30:21] Well, I, I'm really lucky that I had such good training at, uh, my first four years of studying ceramics. Um, and we were forced to do glaze, um, theory and do a lot of testing and analysis and all that.

[00:30:44] So I came out of art school, um, with a really good grounding in understanding glazes and slips in all its spectrum. But at that time I was devoted particularly to raccoon firing, glazing and smoke firing and terra sigillata. I just felt it was really right for the kind of animal pieces I was making.

[00:31:09] You know, I liked that dark and tiki kind of look, the kind of ancient quality that it, it lent itself to. Um, and so for most of the last 30 years, I have raccoon fired. That's been my primary source of coloring and finishing. More terra sigillatas, different kinds of terra sigillata.

[00:31:35] And, and that charred smoking, the glazes. And some colored slips and things as well. Um, but I just got very, very tired of it recently. And having been in the States for 20 years and not been able to get a lot of the materials that I was used to in the UK.

[00:32:02] Um, to make the stoneware glazes that I was wanting to try. I just, I just kept putting it off. I thought, oh, just keep carrying raccoon firing. And then when I moved back to the UK six, seven years ago, um, and it was really when I started making the cats. That I knew that I didn't want to raccoon fire anymore. I was really tired of raccoon firing.

[00:32:31] It didn't hold any interest for me anymore. And I wanted to use stoneware glazes again. Um, and, and have just about given up raccoon firing in, in favor of those kinds of colorants and the finish and the lovely stony. Sort of forever quality that you have with stoneware.

[00:32:57] Raku is very, it feels very unfinished and light and biscuity. And it is all of those things. It is wonderful, but I, I like the more sculptural feeling of stoneware. And I like the color possibilities of using, you know, oxides over glaze and in glaze and layering and double dipping.

[00:33:25] And, um, and although I'm only able to oxidize, you know, my electric kiln. I'm trying to find opportunities to do, you know, reduction firing, salt firing, wood firing, because, you know, I have experience in, in all of that. It's just, I've not been able to, to do it here at home myself. But, um, you know, I know all those effects could be really exciting on the kind of work that I'm trying to do.

[00:33:54] Um, for instance, the piece we were just talking about the stacking animals. Um, I can't imagine doing that in raccoon. I mean, it would, I could do it, but it wouldn't have the strength and that feeling of permanence. Um, that stoneware lends you. I just, I'm so in love with stoneware. And I did a lot of it when I was a student.

[00:34:22] Um, and you know, obviously when I was a high school as well. So it's, it's, it's in me, it's sort of impregnated in me. It's just, I've not, um, I've not been able to embrace it, uh, as, as much as I would like to until, until recently. And, uh, I, I can't imagine going back to being a raccoon artist.

[00:34:49] Uh, I will probably still dabble a little bit, but as a sign of giving it up, I actually, um, gave away my raccoon kilns. All bar, but my smallest one. So, um, and also health wise and everything. Oh my God, I've just, you know, I've never been good at wearing masks and goggles. So I have breathed in so much smoke over a very long period of time and in my eyes.

[00:35:18] And I just, I just don't want to do all that stinky, messy stuff anymore. I do see a few of your pieces here. Um, uh, some of your little foldable folks, uh, that have got some color on them. There's some orange and blue. And, uh, how do you think about the color that you apply? What's your, um, thought process? Well, those little animals, those little folding animals, they can take almost any color.

[00:35:49] Um, but I wouldn't use, for instance, those blues, the turquoise. I probably wouldn't use those on the cats. Um, you know, that blue has got its place somewhere. Yeah, maybe for some monkeys or something, but I'm just trying to expand my palette. Uh, um, really quite traditional eggshell dolomite matte.

[00:36:16] Um, magnesium matte sometimes cool that, that again, I'm not looking at really shiny glazes. I'm looking for this sort of satin eggshell finishes, because I think that sits better with, uh, kind of pieces I'm making. So I'm trying to keep them fairly matte without them being dry. Um, but I want, I want colors that are still quite natural.

[00:36:43] Um, and, and specifically with the cats, you know, I want to be able to put those stripes on. And get lovely, rich depth in, in those sort of browns and grays and oranges if I can. Um, um, the, the, the thing about working in stoneware is you have to do a hell of a lot of testing. Because, you know, comes the day you've got that piece of sculpture in front of you.

[00:37:12] And you know, if you get it wrong, you probably going to end up with a waster. Whereas with Raku, you can re-oxidize. You have those blacks are not quite in the right place. You can re-oxidize. You can also put a little bit of paint on here and there. And enrich. And just, um, tamper with Raku in the way you can't with stoneware. You know, if that glaze runs a little bit too much.

[00:37:40] Or if you didn't get it quite thick enough. Yeah, you can glaze again. But not, not so much if I'm doing stripes and patterns. And so it's, it's, I've been less adventurous with it. Because I need to really make sure my glazes are, I just need to know how the glazes are behaving. For sure. And because I've got different kilns as well, they fire differently.

[00:38:10] Um, so, and I'm not a very good glaze tester. I am a bit sloppy. Um, so I, I do take risks. Uh, and yeah, I, I, in fact, talking about the little folded animals, I have a whole bucket with about 50 rejects in it. So, you know, they, even they don't always work for me.

[00:38:36] Um, just, just what I call proper glazing, stoneware glazing. You just have to, you, you can't, you can't mess around. Yeah. You really need, you need to practice with it. You need to practice with it, don't you? Like, uh, it's really, it's really like you're drawing, right? You were drawing, when you were learning drawing and, and perspective and so on.

[00:39:00] You practiced over and over with multiple, uh, uh, subjects in different ways with different tools. Right. And, uh, and glazing is the same. You really, at least in my experience, I've made many bad pieces because I've glazed them too quickly. Right. Without really, truly understanding that the, what the glaze was going to do. Yeah. Referring back to your glaze tests really.

[00:39:26] We don't realize, I think how it's a real art, that kind of glazing. It's incredibly studied, um, and still full of variables and, and nuance and all. And that's what makes it so exciting, I think. But yeah, the really, you know, absolutely right. You really cannot do enough testing.

[00:39:56] And, and this is something we had to do in college, you know, lay out our glaze tests and look at them and talk about what was happening and why this was happening. And, you know, really try to understand the nature of the glaze. It's pure, pure chemistry. Um, and then of course it can change completely if you, you know, test tiles are great because they're all flat maybe. Um, but then you've got a rounded form to put that on.

[00:40:26] Um, maybe a very tall form. So it might be slightly hodger at the top. Oh, why do we do it? I think, uh, in my case, I keep thinking, uh, God or somebody has, uh, keep, keeps giving me the opportunity to learn patience. And so clay, clay requires a ton of patience. Yes. Persistence and patience. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:40:53] If anyone says you're impatient, well, maybe, but not so much so. And that's why I think we're incredibly optimistic people. We must be fueled by optimism to take so much risk all the time. That's right. Yeah. Hey, uh, uh, on that note, um, uh, you've been a teacher and you've been an avid learner yourself.

[00:41:17] Well, what advice might you give, um, uh, a potter, a sculptor, uh, uh, uh, young or old or new or, or experienced? What, what, what, what, what advice you might have for somebody? Oh, learn, learn techniques, learn all the techniques, study the techniques. Um, absolutely diligently know the language of the material.

[00:41:44] So even if you don't like it, do it. Slabbing, coiling, pinching, throwing, casting, mold making, um, dowling, um, and all, all the things you can draw on the surface. So you're carving, um, um, uh, sprigging, um, um, everything you can do. What is the thing? I think try and learn as much about the material as you can.

[00:42:13] And of course that includes slips and glazes as well. It's such a huge field. Um, but I think if you, if you limit yourself, um, you're sort of, um, cutting off half your alphabet really. Sorry, it's my cat. Yeah, it's muscles.

[00:42:36] Um, so I, I think, um, I think it, it's rather like a musician, you know, learn your instrument, learn your keys, um, learn the craft. I, ideas, I think are only as successful as your means of interpretation.

[00:42:58] Um, and I think the more you understand about the material, what it's got to say, the more power you're going to have in your tank, the more fuel you're going to have, I think. Um, that's, I mean, that's how I was taught.

[00:43:15] And, uh, I think because I have an under, a really deep, broad understanding of my material, um, I don't feel like there are any doors close to me. I may not be a really good thrower, but I can throw well enough that I can use those shapes to make sculpture.

[00:43:39] Um, I, I do think to try and embrace and learn as much about material as possible. Um, so you're not limiting your choices. You know, in a way, uh, certainly I've experienced this and I see it in others. As soon as you begin to understand that the technical components that allows you to be freer in terms of your interpretation of the piece that you're trying to make, whatever it may be. Quite so. I quite agree with that. Yes. Yes.

[00:44:09] And that's, this sort of links in why I'm an advocate of this is that's why I went back to learn how to draw because I knew I had. Um, these, these sort of blind spots and I, I, I was limited. Um, and I felt really frustrated because I didn't know, didn't know how to do it.

[00:44:35] Um, so yeah, the more, the, the more you can, the more tools in your toolbox. Yeah. The more empowered you're going to be. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's almost like another door opens for you when you learn new techniques that sort of, uh, work on top of each other. Right. So that you become highly skilled. It becomes almost unconscious in some ways, in terms of what you're doing. You put it perfectly. Absolutely.

[00:45:04] So yeah, you can work really intuitively. Um, you know, like a great chef, knowing what to do with, you know, a few random materials. You just, um, it's, I feel I know the language of clay better than I know the English language. I just, I, and I love that. I, I think I've only thought about that recently.

[00:45:30] Um, um, in the past few years, I thought, gosh, I know this material. I, I know how it's going to behave. It doesn't always mean it's going to work. It doesn't mean my glazes are always going to work, but I, I know it sort of better than I know myself. And that's, that's a really great gift to have. Yeah. I, I, I, I, yeah, it's, it's, I take it for granted, but I tried to go back and do some

[00:46:00] printmaking some years ago with a friend who's an absolute brilliant printmaker. And I've done a little bit of printmaking in my time, but, uh, I was so frustrated because I wanted to know, I want, I knew what I kind of wanted to do in terms of imagery, but I didn't know how to do it. And I felt absolutely handicapped because, and I thought for me to know what Steve knows

[00:46:26] and to be able to just make decisions intuitively, it's a lifetime's work. Well, that's what I have in ceramic. Um, but I'll never have it as a pretty printmaker. And it was really deflating. So, yeah, I, I, I embrace and celebrate the fact that, you know, I've, I've worked long

[00:46:49] and hard with this, this mud and, and I, I, I know this beast. Yeah. Absolutely. That's very obvious and you're very successful in what you're doing. And, and, uh, I want to thank you so much for spending some time with us today. This has been, uh, enlightening to talk with you and I'm sure our audience will really enjoy listening to you talk about your, uh, notions of, uh, color and ceramics and form and the things

[00:47:17] that we talked about, but maybe in particular about the learning process and how to get to be a master at your craft like you are. Oh, well, thank you very much. It's been an indulgence to have this conversation with you. It's been really lovely. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the color and ceramics podcast with Bob Acton and his guests.

[00:47:43] Please help others find the podcast by subscribing to this podcast, wherever you find your podcasts, such as iTunes, Spotify, Amazon music, YouTube, or other pod catchers. And don't forget to give us a review. We'll see you next time.